Chris Froome Power Data released

Triathlon Forum
84

How much time has Froome put into his rivals on the climbing stages? It doesn’t seem like he’s blowing the competition out of the water in the hills. He is just holding the lead that he got in earlier stages. If you’re going to accuse Froome of doping you need to include Quintana since he’s been right there with him at the finish line of the hillier stages.

Well he put over a minute on Quintana in stage 4 and stage 10. Stage 4 was classified as hilly while 10 was a mountain stage. So that kinda blows up your argument.

I’m watching the race and he’s not riding the doors off the competition. Putting two minutes into Qunitana a 2000 mile race does not scream doper to me. Tejay and Nairo have been right there with him most of the race. I honestly think it speaks to how boring the GC can be in the TDF. You could pretty much tell Froome was going to win it by like the fifth day of the race. Last year was even worse because Nibali had no real competition.

85

Thanks! Good explanation.

So is he doping :slight_smile:

As far as I’ve seen, that conclusion can’t be made from that power data…

As Jackmott likes to say, if he is doping, then we need a soigneur or someone to spill the beans, or some journalists to go through garbage cans, or something…to really know.

Sounds about right, pretty hard to have a lot of faith in the testers given the failures in the past, and imagine it’s not going to get any better with things like gene doping coming along (or already here…). Can’t prove a negative, so if we never get any evidence that Sky was doping we’ll never really know for sure whether that means they were actually clean, or whether they had the best culture of omerta. In their favour, between 5 years of Sky and ~15 years British Cycling (lot of overlap in terms of riders, coaches and management) nothing’s been turned up yet, and there shouldn’t be a shortage of either disgruntled ex-employees given the number of people who have been binned by Sky under their zero tolerance policy (Rogers, Julich, Leinders, De Jongh, etc) or of snooping journalists given the shitstorm of doping accusations that follows them around.

86

Thanks! Good explanation.

So is he doping :slight_smile:

As far as I’ve seen, that conclusion can’t be made from that power data…

As Jackmott likes to say, if he is doping, then we need a soigneur or someone to spill the beans, or some journalists to go through garbage cans, or something…to really know.

Sounds about right, pretty hard to have a lot of faith in the testers given the failures in the past, and imagine it’s not going to get any better with things like gene doping coming along (or already here…). Can’t prove a negative, so if we never get any evidence that Sky was doping we’ll never really know for sure whether that means they were actually clean, or whether they had the best culture of omerta. In their favour, between 5 years of Sky and ~15 years British Cycling (lot of overlap in terms of riders, coaches and management) nothing’s been turned up yet, and there shouldn’t be a shortage of either disgruntled ex-employees given the number of people who have been binned by Sky under their zero tolerance policy (Rogers, Julich, Leinders, De Jongh, etc) or of snooping journalists given the shitstorm of doping accusations that follows them around.

This is what makes me fairly happy that there is no organised doping within Sky/Team GB - by now, especially in the wake of the Armstrong case, someone would have broken ranks and spilled the beans, if there are any beans to spill.

Of course that doesn’t mean that individual riders aren’t doping on their own, but that is often when they end up doing it wrong and get caught - eg Flloyd, JTL, etc.

I think that with the fall out from Armstrong, we have probably seen the end of organised team doping - with the possible exception of Astana - what the hell is going on there?

87

Thanks! Good explanation.

So is he doping :slight_smile:

As far as I’ve seen, that conclusion can’t be made from that power data…

As Jackmott likes to say, if he is doping, then we need a soigneur or someone to spill the beans, or some journalists to go through garbage cans, or something…to really know.

Sounds about right, pretty hard to have a lot of faith in the testers given the failures in the past, and imagine it’s not going to get any better with things like gene doping coming along (or already here…). Can’t prove a negative, so if we never get any evidence that Sky was doping we’ll never really know for sure whether that means they were actually clean, or whether they had the best culture of omerta. In their favour, between 5 years of Sky and ~15 years British Cycling (lot of overlap in terms of riders, coaches and management) nothing’s been turned up yet, and there shouldn’t be a shortage of either disgruntled ex-employees given the number of people who have been binned by Sky under their zero tolerance policy (Rogers, Julich, Leinders, De Jongh, etc) or of snooping journalists given the shitstorm of doping accusations that follows them around.

This is what makes me fairly happy that there is no organised doping within Sky/Team GB - by now, especially in the wake of the Armstrong case, someone would have broken ranks and spilled the beans, if there are any beans to spill.

Of course that doesn’t mean that individual riders aren’t doping on their own, but that is often when they end up doing it wrong and get caught - eg Flloyd, JTL, etc.

I think that with the fall out from Armstrong, we have probably seen the end of organised team doping - with the possible exception of Astana - what the hell is going on there?

An easy theory is that ex-riders/coaches/soigneurs don’t want to be blacklisted from cycling entirely by blabbing. They may hate Sky’s guts and perhaps the feeling is mutual, but publicly ratting on your former employer’s every wrongdoing probably wouldn’t be a good line on the resume.

88

This whole thing is sad.

Sky cannot possibly prove they are not doping, apart from blood/urine tests, so what is the point in the discussion?

How are they expected to prove it?

The data file release will just provide the same 50% for 50% against arguments we always have.

This is what I don’t get. Is there some rule about not testing during the event? Why not take a wizz quiz, post the results, and be done with it?

Seems like posting other data is smoke and mirrors. Is there something I’m missing?

89

Ahhh…they test during the tour. You have heard of people passing tests in the past haven’t you?

90

The numbers are a joke. Sadly enough, I believe we’ll start hearing guys dropping dead from cancer, heart attacks, etc… in the next few years.

    With your past experience I find your quote very telling. I think you would have a better idea than the vast majority here. Thanks for the post
91

With low inertial load, the rider can actually make the non-round chainring have a more even rotational velocity, and thus the power isn’t inflated as much. So we would have a case of “SRM”+round = underestimate? As you say, small beer for a seated climb @90+rpm. Extrapolating the other quoted riders’ figures puts Froome at ~6.2W/kg, to which we must factor in everyone’s L/R balance, crank vs hub, round vs oval etc as appropriate. What we also have is the first day in the mountains, and a stage following a rest day and the relatively easy TTT stage. Is this also part of the equation, two known but unquantified phenomena for other riders to underperform? Can’t say Froome has repeated the delta on any other col. Ultimately, the most Froome will ever achieve from armchair analysis is a value of how (im)plausible his ride is for a clean rider, not proof of riding clean.

92

I’m watching the race and he’s not riding the doors off the competition.

That’s exactly why the leaked/stolen power/HRM analysis that Sky is doing everything they can to shut down is so interesting. If someone were doping at this level, they wouldn’t be dumb enough to blow the doors off the competition and invite suspicion from someone like yourself. Rather you exert enough effort to accomplish your goal relative to the other riders. So when a rider is putting out big numbers without the appropriate HR spike (sandbagging), that’s not a smoking gun, but it’s a hint.

It is true that the PM might not be perfectly calibrated, but consistent data from riders over a large sample would give a much clearer picture of what is going on (and 16 years ago would have outed LA). Given the deplorable history of honesty in cycling, it would be in their best interest to try something different, not the same old secrecy.

93

Yeah, true.

It’s a shame that this is what the sport’s come to- someone has a breakout performance and the immediate suspicion is cheating. Not saying Froome did or didn’t, it just sucks we can’t just enjoy the sport for its own sake like during the LaMond days.

94

I’m watching the race and he’s not riding the doors off the competition.

That’s exactly why the leaked/stolen power/HRM analysis that Sky is doing everything they can to shut down is so interesting. If someone were doping at this level, they wouldn’t be dumb enough to blow the doors off the competition and invite suspicion from someone like yourself. Rather you exert enough effort to accomplish your goal relative to the other riders. So when a rider is putting out big numbers without the appropriate HR spike (sandbagging), that’s not a smoking gun, but it’s a hint.

It is true that the PM might not be perfectly calibrated, but consistent data from riders over a large sample would give a much clearer picture of what is going on (and 16 years ago would have outed LA). Given the deplorable history of honesty in cycling, it would be in their best interest to try something different, not the same old secrecy.

I can see you’re not that familiar with HR responses at those relative power levels…not to mention HR response in the middle of a multi-week stage race :-/

95

I can see you’re not that familiar with HR responses at those relative power levels…not to mention HR response in the middle of a multi-week stage race :-/

Then why don’t you show me the 2013 TdF power files, and we can see the HR responses relative to power files, maybe even compare them to the 2012 HR response in the middle of a multi-week stage race. Or I could be further educated by someone who can explain HR responses at those relative power levels in the earlier this year exceptional Rota del Sol performance.

Oh wait, you can’t.

96

I can see you’re not that familiar with HR responses at those relative power levels…not to mention HR response in the middle of a multi-week stage race :-/

Then why don’t you show me the 2013 TdF power files, and we can see the HR responses relative to power files, maybe even compare them to the 2012 HR response in the middle of a multi-week stage race. Or I could be further educated by someone who can explain HR responses at those relative power levels in the earlier this year exceptional Rota del Sol performance.

Oh wait, you can’t.

Non sequitur much?

97

That’s exactly why the leaked/stolen power/HRM analysis that Sky is doing everything they can to shut down is so interesting. If someone were doping at this level, they wouldn’t be dumb enough to blow the doors off the competition and invite suspicion from someone like yourself. Rather you exert enough effort to accomplish your goal relative to the other riders. So when a rider is putting out big numbers without the appropriate HR spike (sandbagging), that’s not a smoking gun, but it’s a hint.

Sounds like you have it all figured out. Better go outside and make sure the black helicopters aren’t circling.

98

Sounds like you have it all figured out. Better go outside and make sure the black helicopters aren’t circling.

If you find any of that extra clever or can will yourself to believe that hasn’t been happening for a long time, then by all means, enjoy the tour. You sound like their perfect fan.

100

Article with some details from PM rep:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/…-pinarello-dogma-f8/

Multiple source of confirmation are good :slight_smile:

This also points to the KICKR having a decent amount of flywheel inertia :wink:
.

102

Just a thought as to whether the ‘figures all stack up’.

We’re talking about Team Sky. Possibly one of the most methodical sports teams in the world. If they release something to the public then I would recommend not wasting your time to see whether they stack up.

103

Just a thought as to whether the ‘figures all stack up’.

We’re talking about Team Sky. Possibly one of the most methodical sports teams in the world. If they release something to the public then I would recommend not wasting your time to see whether they stack up.

Except when they don’t.

Never mind power meters, etc, there’s plenty that Team Sky do poorly. Top of the list is media relations. Talent management (Wiggins, anyone?). Teaching their riders descending/handling skills.

104

Just a thought as to whether the ‘figures all stack up’.

We’re talking about Team Sky. Possibly one of the most methodical sports teams in the world. If they release something to the public then I would recommend not wasting your time to see whether they stack up.

Except when they don’t.

Never mind power meters, etc, there’s plenty that Team Sky do poorly. Top of the list is media relations. Talent management (Wiggins, anyone?). Teaching their riders descending/handling skills.

Using butyl tubes in their tires.

105

Just a thought as to whether the ‘figures all stack up’.

We’re talking about Team Sky. Possibly one of the most methodical sports teams in the world. If they release something to the public then I would recommend not wasting your time to see whether they stack up.

Except when they don’t.

Never mind power meters, etc, there’s plenty that Team Sky do poorly. Top of the list is media relations. Talent management (Wiggins, anyone?). Teaching their riders descending/handling skills.

You can’t ‘never mind’ power meters, we’re talking about power meters. No way they are going to release that without it being exactly what they recorded or, worst case scenario, making sure the fictional figures stack up.

As for the rest of your points I agree, but … They do not need media relations to win races - because they won the TdF. They do not need Wiggins to win races - because they won TdF twice without him (and arguable he was struggling anyway). Teaching rider skills may just be a case of those riders not being as good as others, period. I doubt they are ignoring it.

But … I was talking about the subject of this thread, their release of power data, and no way is it not going to stack up. (he said, waiting for the news report that details how the data doesn’t stack up)