Catastrophic LHC Danger?

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is the world’s largest particle collider, recently built by CERN near the Swiss-French border. Having started up in September but then closed soon thereafter because of technical problems, it is not expected to reopen until July. The collider is designed to study particles produced by the collision of two beams of protons traveling in opposite directions at extremely high energies, and it may very well provide us with data that could revolutionize our understanding of physics.

A concern has been raised by a number of observers that these collisions could produce tiny black holes that could literally swallow up the Earth. I initially regarded such speculations with considerable skepticism, having seen how parallel alarmist fears have greeted just about every major technological advance since at least the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. No doubt, when Prometheus first discovered fire, there were critics who were concerned that he might inadvertently ignite a conflagration that would engulf the entire world in holocaust.

In the last few days, however, I’ve come upon two articles that seem to give some serious weight to the concerns in this case. When the black holes issue was first raised, calculations were produced predicting that any such black holes would decay practically immediately, in a tiny fraction of a second, long before any damage could be done. A recent article (http://arxivblog.com/?p=1136), however, discusses some more recent revised calculations that suggest that they could possibly survive for longer than a second, perhaps even for minutes. Although most scientists still don’t see them as a significant danger, they agree that the danger is a number of order of magnitudes greater than previously estimated. Furthermore, the very fact that the original calculations seem to have been incorrect leads one to wonder just how well the risks are understood.

The second article (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126926.800-how-do-we-know-the-lhc-really-is-safe.html?page=1) raises an important question about the whole probability calculation, which originally estimated that the probability of a major disaster was of the order of 10**-9. Although I don’t agree with the mathematical methodology of the article (it suggests a formula that purports to assign numerical values to a kind of probabilities to which numerical values don’t apply), I think the underlying idea is valid. The underlying idea is that the calculations are predicated on a particular view of the physics involved, and there remains a very real possibility that this view is mistaken, so that we may be seriously underestimating the probability of catastrophe.

Even if one were to concede that the probability of disaster is miniscule (and it seems far from clear that such is the case), the magnitude of such a disaster would be beyond any other disaster imaginable, which I think compels us to look at this issue VERY carefully. It’s not my intention here to minimize discussions about global warming, but where those who are most fearful of GW speak of the destruction of the planet, they probably don’t mean it in the sense of annihilating the entire planet, perhaps in a fraction of a second.

I’d be very interested to see the opinions of others on this issue, particularly those who know more about the physics than I.

If we don’t master these forces and understand them, we are all dead anyway =)

We need off this rock!

First if you got to go can you think of a quicker way than being sucked into a black hole :slight_smile:

Second I think there is a FAR FAR larger consensus that the collider will create no or very little threat than there is that global warming is a threat.

Third I agree if we are hitting some “New data” that may indicate a significantly elevated risk factor I see no reason to rush into firing it up.

Fourth pretty much every scientific experiment carries some level of danger into the “unknown”. Similar things were said about the atomic bomb and probably many historic breakthroughs.

Maybe one day one of the “Doomsday” events will happen, but I don’t think we can hold progress up entirely everytime there is a minuscule chance of destruction.

~Matt

Black Hole Armageddon! We’re all fu–ed! I’m gonna put this one on my top five apocolypse list. Above global warming and over population, but beneath Friday 13th Asteroid and Asian Birds!

Also, how aero can I get if I were to bike through a black hole?.

Two words…The Mist. :slight_smile:

The dangers of the LHC are a bunch of bunk. There is always a fringe element, like the people that think the apollo missions were faked or that the gov’t is housing aliens at area 51.

The dangers of the LHC are a bunch of bunk. There is always a fringe element, like the people that think the apollo missions were faked or that the gov’t is housing aliens at area 51.
or that government can spend its way out of a recession…

i view this as a question of morality.

if the large hardon collider, a massive, winding cyclindrical phallus that collides male genetalia with one another, is generating black holes, that can only mean one thing:

even more gay sex.

we all know that once you go black, you never go back, and if all these scientists operating the LHC are nearby, they might get sucked in by the holes and become homosexuals.

this, of course, is a good thing, and all the more reason to support the LHC.

Black Hole Armageddon! We’re all fu–ed! I’m gonna put this one on my top five apocolypse list. Above global warming and over population, but beneath Friday 13th Asteroid and Asian Birds!

Also, how aero can I get if I were to bike through a black hole?.
Perhaps you’ll enjoy this collection of the top ten ways to destroy Earth.

http://www.livescience.com/technology/destroy_earth_mp.html

And your aerodynamics would probably improve significantly with the dramatic decrease of your frontal area, as tidal forces crush you into a string.

“Second I think there is a FAR FAR larger consensus that the collider will create no or very little threat than there is that global warming is a threat.”

There are two problems with that argument. First, whether or not there is a consensus among scientists isn’t what determines whether or not either event will actually happen. Second, we’re talking about a catastrophe that would dwarf even the worst-case scenarios of GW. We’re not just talking about adjusting to a climate similar to the age of the dinosaurs; we’re talking about eliminating the planet and everything on it, perhaps faster than anyone could post an “I told you so” post in the LR.

Furthermore, the competing theories at the current fringes of physics make the study of climate look like hard, thoroughly proven science. With all the back-and-forth controversies about the nature of black holes, can there really be a meaningful consensus about a matter like this one?

I’m about as pro-science and pro-technology as anyone, and I was inclined to laugh off the claims of danger at first, but I have to admit that these latest discussions leave me uncomfortable.

If we don’t master these forces and understand them, we are all dead anyway =)

We need off this rock!
Better dead then in a depression. Finally a solution to our problems!

Rob, one point left out of discussions when people are trying to scare you, is that atomic collisions like the one that will be happening in that collider happen on earth all the time, by accident, from stuff flying by through space.

Clearly none of those have resulted in black holes of doom.

YET!

“Second I think there is a FAR FAR larger consensus that the collider will create no or very little threat than there is that global warming is a threat.”

There are two problems with that argument. First, whether or not there is a consensus among scientists isn’t what determines whether or not either event will actually happen. Second, we’re talking about a catastrophe that would dwarf even the worst-case scenarios of GW. We’re not just talking about adjusting to a climate similar to the age of the dinosaurs; we’re talking about eliminating the planet and everything on it, perhaps faster than anyone could post an “I told you so” post in the LR.

Furthermore, the competing theories at the current fringes of physics make the study of climate look like hard, thoroughly proven science. With all the back-and-forth controversies about the nature of black holes, can there really be a meaningful consensus about a matter like this one?

I’m about as pro-science and pro-technology as anyone, and I was inclined to laugh off the claims of danger at first, but I have to admit that these latest discussions leave me uncomfortable.

Here is a site with some more useful information:

http://www.hasthelhcdestroyedtheearth.com/

or you can add the xml / rss feed.

http://www.hasthelhcdestroyedtheearth.com/rss.xml

My initial thought was along similar lines; if nature is doing the same thing all the time that we are attempting, that indicates that we’re unlikely to blow ourselves to smithereens doing it. OTOH, is it a routine thing in nature for heavier particles (such as protons) to collide with each other at close to the speed of light? Or is this the kind of thing that happens only very occasionally, perhaps giving birth to galaxies or some such? I don’t know. If it is, that would offer considerable reassurance.

LOL! That html reminds me of the page on my website where I lay bare the principles underlying pragmatism. (To understand the pragmatist’s principles, go to http://www.humanactioncourse.info/pp/cd/HH12007.html and click on the box labeled “The Pragmatist’s Principles.”)

One would think that someone with a username like “glitch” would be more attuned to the possible unintended consequences of complex technological projects. :wink:

First, whether or not there is a consensus among scientists isn’t what determines whether or not either event will actually happen.

Agreed, but if you have 100 equally qualified people and 99 say “No problem” and 1 says “The sky is falling” do you go with the 1 or the 99?

**Second, we’re talking about a catastrophe that would dwarf even the worst-case scenarios of GW. We’re not just talking about adjusting to a climate similar to the age of the dinosaurs; we’re talking about eliminating the planet and everything on it, perhaps faster than anyone could post an “I told you so” post in the LR. **

Which, IMHO, is a far better way to go than dying from starvation or thru the ravages of a 20 year war…so in short the idea doesn’t bother me. Dying doesn’t bother me, dying a slow agonizing death bothers me :slight_smile:

Furthermore, the competing theories at the current fringes of physics make the study of climate look like hard, thoroughly proven science. With all the back-and-forth controversies about the nature of black holes, can there really be a meaningful consensus about a matter like this one?

Going back to the above 100 qualified people if the evidence is compelling enough I would expect the 1 to be able to change a few minds of the 99. I would expect the 99 to thoroughly examine the evidence presented by the 1. But when all is said and done and it’s still 99 to 1, we still have to go with the 99 if they are not swayed by the evidence of the 1.

Of course I would expect there to be no action while the evidence of the 1 is being examined.

~Matt

I’m book marking those pages and checking back on a daily basis :slight_smile:

~Matt
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“Agreed, but if you have 100 equally qualified people and 99 say ‘No problem’ and 1 says ‘The sky is falling’ do you go with the 1 or the 99?”

Considering how horrendous a risk “the sky is falling” represents, I’d go with the 1. That’s assuming, of course, that the sky would fall only if we proceeded with the action in question, and that if we did not, the results of that wouldn’t be pretty terrible in themselves. It also assumes that I did not myself have clear evidence refuting the view of the sole naysayer.

“Going back to the above 100 qualified people if the evidence is compelling enough I would expect the 1 to be able to change a few minds of the 99.”

Is there a 99% of physicists who agree about anything in the loftier areas of the science right now?

As an easter egg, check out their robots file: http://www.hasthelhcdestroyedtheearth.com/robots.txt . We’re all doomed.
Two quick discussion points-
One article I read basically made the argument that if a scientist says there is a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of destruction, but scientists are historically wrong 1 in 10,000 times (I made up the numbers, I can’t remember what the article cited), then how much merit does their estimation hold?
And, if the LHC does go black-hole-supernova bad, we will all be wiped out before anyone, including the operators, even knew there was an incident.

I think the article you’re trying to remember is the second one I cited.

“And, if the LHC does go black-hole-supernova bad, we will all be wiped out before anyone, including the operators, even knew there was an incident.”

So the question becomes: If (hypothetically) it is indeed true that everyone on Slowtwitch is going to die tomorrow, but it will happen so quickly that no one will be aware of it, is everyone here okay with that?