Carbon rear ends - overall impression - current gimmick or useful?
Whats peoples view - do they work, whats the shelf life, do they break, useful on alu, not so useful on steel or ti? Any reasons why don’t Cervelo use them? I’m not convinced and they tend to put me off a frame…
do they work - I don’t there is no measurable difference in comfort or stiffness over currently available materials. You’ll bet more vibration reduction with a carbon seatpost. There are those who will say the carbon rear ends are stiffer, but you can get the same effect with MTB metal stays.
whats the shelf life, do they break - They theoretically add additional joints to the frame. Most frames break at the joints. That said, I don’t think I’ve seen or heard of any breakages. The main disadvantage to the carbon rear ends is additional weight and cost.
Any reasons why don’t Cervelo use them? - You’ll have to ask Gerard, but I think his answer would be similar to what I just wrote.
They break when you get hit by a truck! ;->
One of these day’s I’ll post the scary pics of my crushed Litespeed. . . when I can stand to look at them without puking.
Carbon rear ends - overall impression - current gimmick or useful?
Whats peoples view - do they work, whats the shelf life, do they break, useful on alu, not so useful on steel or ti? Any reasons why don’t Cervelo use them? I’m not convinced and they tend to put me off a frame…
Why don’t we use them? Because we KNOW they don’t do what people promise they do. There are independent studies out there that show the only difference between frames which are identical except for the alu vs. carbon rear end is that the carbon version is a little bit heavier due to the overlaps. Bavarian Frank may have the TOUR Radmagazin where this is shown.
But in the bike industry, companies are usually not that concerned about function. If their competitor has a carbon rear end, they have to have one too. The customer asks for it (either because it looks cool or because there is a perceived benefit) and the easiest thing to do is give the customer what it wants.
Are there problems with carbon rear ends? In some cases there are, in other cases problems may yet have to surface, and in some cases there won’t be any problems. A major, major manufacturer (outside of North America) recently slashed its warranty on all carbon rear-end frames to just one year, because they were getting too many returns.
For Cervelo, we won’t put a feature on our bikes if we don’t see the benefit, and we definitely won’t do it if we see serious potential problems. We just changed to a limited lifetine warranty on all our frames, and we did that because we don’t have warranty issues with our frames, and we want to keep it that way. And we’re not alone, Cannondale and Principia don’t do carbon rear ends either, both companies with a solid engineering background.
I know they break also, ABG has had a LARGE number of issues on their frames (more with the Al frames than the Ti frames I think - but I dont work for ABG so who knows). What I do know is…when I got my Ultimate (polished - damn she’s purty)…I knew that it was a lifetime frame. When I got the Palmeres, I knew it to would out last me…Now, look at the new Ultimate…carbon rear (not even the Reynolds one). This is no longer a lifetime bike - the carbon will break. Maybe not today, maybe not this week - but one day it will break. Crashing also, you lay down a Ti bike…no dents, no worries. Now with the carbon there it is a whole new concern.
I don’t get the deal with the carbon rear stays either. If you buy a Ti bike you are paying extra for durability—the carbon takes this aspect away. Durrability asiede, I suppose the idea for the carbon seat stays is similar to the carbon fork. A carbon fork dampens impact in the front, so why would the same not be true for the rear? I think the answer to this question will have more to do with weight distribution than anything else. I would guess that most of your weight is over the seat tube, so until someone makes a carbon seat tube, the comfort from carbon seat stays will be minimal. THOUGHTS?
You buy an only ti bike from Litespeed and you got a lifetime warranty.
We’ve done a lot of work on carbon rear end bikes for three years now. We have sold hundreds over this time span. We know these things for fact from our experiences here in the store:
Those are the facts, now, for our opinions:
That has been our experience in a nutshell.
“Neither are mass produced. Each is hand made.”
Can you give me an example of any frames over $200 that are not handmade?
Hmmmm, good point john.
I think I might have done well to be more specific.
Guru is made in Montreal, Quebec at or near their own facility, i.e.- They do actually make their own bikes there and it is a largely non-automated, “hands-on” kind of manufacturing.
Yaqui is made by the guy who generally answers the phone, Ves, unless he is busy building bikes or riding himself, so it is a very “hands on” operation.
I was trying to contrast this to the type of assembly or manufacture where a company makes a design, hires one or two vendors to make some prototypes, tests the prototypes and based on the outcome of the testing hires that manufacturing company to build the production run of bikes.
Now, I venture to say the lion’s share of bikes in the world are made the later way as opposed to the former way. there are some pretty nice bikes- really nice in fact- bikes made in Taiwan by vendors or manufacturers hired by desing firms that are not in Taiwan. They are top notch, high end quality bikes that have fared well in the Tour de France and Ironman.
I was trying to illustrate the difference in the manufacturing environment, and did a poor job- So I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.
I used to be vehemently against the carbon rear end. Now, my stance has softened substantially. But, done wrong, they CAN be disastrous. You have to ask the question of how much do you trust your builder.
Pros:
Straighter rear ends with less time on the alignment table. There is only two tubes to weld and they are relatively easy to get correct, compared to putting on chainstays and a fastback. One can do this with less skill, which can be found as a Con, as well.
Stiffer. Think of a carbon fork compared to an aluminium fork. 'nuff said. But it also has the potential to take away road buzz.
Can make a steel frame lighter. Think back to the steel fork vs. the carbon fork argument. Steel rode nicely, but carbon rode like steel and made your bike less of an anchor on a big hill. But it won’t make an aluminium frame lighter at all.
Cons:
Can be manufactured with less skill by the builder. A 90degree mitred socket and a scribe in the centre of the bottom bracket is all that is needed to install a carbon chainstay (along with a good weld) . Some manufacturers could put a welder with lesser experience (which I HOPE that would not be the case) for this job. This would be a minor worry, and me thinks that maybe I shouldn’t have even brought this up.
Galvanic corrosion potential. This is small, and I realise that through conversation with a frame building supplier, it is a low possibility, unless a substandard glue is used. Also, this is in a low-risk area for a salty agent (i.e. sweat, Gatorade) to even make it start. Also, I would be more weary of the forks you use as you need the front wheel and fork intact for a crash, whereas you have the potential to be able to walk away and ride another bike if your rear stays fail.
Lifetime frames can be not-so-lifetime. That can be true of any frame, as the first gen modern ti bikes are starting to fail. Most people don’t keep their bikes forever. But one serious hit can break the carbon rear end. They can be repaired, however, just depending on the break and who is repairing it. And carbon is not this delicate flower that everyone believes it is. Ask Marty Nothstein what frame he prefers for the track- he will show you his medals won on his Corima Cougar track frame. He was plenty big track guy when he raced it exclusively, which blows away the argument that carbon can’t be for the big guys.
Added weight. This is a bone of contention, as we all know that the smallest diametre Scandium stays will weigh less than the lightest carbon stays ever will, especially when you add a socket and glue. Will they be as stiff as the carbon ones? Probably not.
Would I buy a carbon stayed frame? Probably not, as I prefer the whole thing made of carbon, and I like steel, as well. I would only get it from a builder who understands the properties of carbon fibre, and whom is meticulous with their work. Proper prep is KEY to mating carbon to metal.
WILL you or can you give an example of what you perceive Tom, as a poorly made back ended carbon bike…please?
Douglas for one…hell - even the picture of the BB in Colorado Cyclist you can see flaws in it…LOL
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Tom,
Not to discredit anyone who puts the time and effort into making frames themselves then putting them up for sale, But sometimes hands on just isn’t that great.
“We will evaluate your needs acquire your measurements and our expierenced design team, will custom fabricate your dream frame, right here in our own facility.”
Sounds wonderful but lets break it down. the description I used was for the construction of a hunting blind (Melissa). Thats right my buddy and I can construct one hell of a deer blind with some metal, welding rods and a case of beer. Probably finish the thing in one day, custom. Now if I am welding, the thing may last a year if my buddy is welding it will last probably ten years. Not all bike builders are created equal. Taking some of the human factor out of the construction process I don’t think is a bad thing.
Custom or onsight means nothing to me unless I get to know the people building it (research). Yet research can be flawed (melissa)
I worked in a bike shop in the past and sold many hand built bikes that crack, break and all that good stuff and sold some that were bullet proof. The Lions share made in taiwan had problems also.
I currently have 4 bikes, 2 or hand made two or not, my favorite for the past few months is Taiwan built, none with carbon rear ends.
Hi OzHEDude, Thanks for the direct question.
I should refrain from specifically naming the carbon rear ends I don’t like for a couple reasons.
That’s about it.
"I worked in a bike shop in the past and sold many hand built bikes that crack, break and all that good stuff and sold some that were bullet proof. The Lions share made in taiwan had problems also. "
Are you saying that frames made in Taiwan are not hand built? It is my understanding that almost every bicycle frame made anywhere is welded by hand. That hand may be a $.10/hour Chinese child or it may be a $100/hour middle-aged American. But both frames are still built by hand.
Hell I don’t know, my point was that “hand made” might be marketing hype . From my personal experience, the manufactures who find the most efficient way to make my riding their product enjoyable, without me having to return the bike to them for warranty purposes is doing the right thing, whatever that may be.