PLEASE HELP!!!! I'm a confused and bamboozled young man.
Hello all, I have just discovered this forum very recently and I am finding it extremely interesting. I hope you can help.
I have the chance to buy some second hand, almost unused Campag Bora wheels, circa 1996/1997, spoked 16fr 16r (I know for sure their history). I have concerns about the lateral stiffness of only 16 spokes, particulary on rear wheel. Bora's were still only 16 spoked untill new G3 pattern, yet all the others ie, Zipp, Hed, Corima etc, seem to be using 24 spokes on rear wheel, and I beleive that Corima have always made the Bora rim. I'm confused!!
I have been told that the Shamals were very laterally stiff, so will the Bora's be equally stiff, more stiff or less stiff. They are full carbon 50mm rim with traditional J-bend DT bladed spokes. I am 6' 2" tall and 165 pounds approx (12 stone) and want the wheels primarily for road racing. I tend to be quite rough on wheels (agressive riding, big gears out of saddle etc). Any thoughts on whether they would be suitable for me, or any first hand experience would be great.
Also, I have a Hed Superlight disk that I bought second hand but haven't used yet. I came across some data on Sheldon Brown's site on wheel deflection (lateral stiffness) and the Hed disks came out very poorly. Does anyone find the Superlight very "flexy"? And is it possible to fill the disk through the valve hole with something that would make it stiffer, like an appropriate foam for example?
Sorry for the length of this post. I hope to hear from somebody. Thanks.
165 lbs is relatively light, but if you have had a problem destroying wheels in the past, it is hard to recommend a lightweight carbon wheelset with only 16 spokes. I weigh about 170 and use 16 spoke Cosmics with no problems, but I tend to be pretty easy on wheels.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the disk. Time trials tend to be easier on wheels than road races. And any flexibility in the wheel will not be due to the valve hole so I wouldn’t waste any time trying to fill it in.
Mr. Red Shoes:
“I’m not really an expert”
Bwuahahahahahahaha!
-Robert
Thanks for your reply John. I still can't make up my mind though. I don't destroy wheels, in fact when I think about it the problems I've had with wheels in terms of breaking spokes have been with very poorly built "custom" wheels ie,32 spokes box rim. I realise how poor the build quality was now that I build my own wheels - no more problems. However, I would like to get the Bora's for aero advantage but still unsure about lateral stiffness - mainly because I had some Dura-Ace 16 spoke wheels a couple of years ago which I found very very "flexy". Decisions Decisions !!!!! I'm presuming the Cosmics you refer to are the old metal rimmed Shamal equivalent's. Any more thoughts regarding comparative strength of the Bora rim compared to your Cosmic?
You mis-understood my question on the Hed disk. I wasn't wondering about filling the valve hole to increase strength, I was wondering about filling the WHOLE disk by using the valve hole to insert or pour something inside and fill the whole disk (obviously the Hed disks are hollow). Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Thanks for your reply Kraig. I found your article very interesting, but I don’t really feel any further forward on making a decision. You say that you can rub rear brake pads on most “fancy” wheels - does that include this type of deep section carbon wheel like Corima, Zipp etc, and have you ever found the same with Shamals? Question: For a rear wheel what would be the aero advantage, if any, of these 16 spoke Boras over a wheel built with the same 50mm rim and 32 round spokes (which would obviously be extremely stiff)? Would the difference be measurable? I’ve noticed that a lot of Pros are riding Ambrosio or Fir 50mm rims with 28 round spokes for road racing!!! Any thoughts?
By the way, sorry Kraig and John for the delay in responding to you, but I live in Scotland, so when you replied I was in bed, and you will be in bed when I’m writing this (about 8hr time difference I think)
Thanks very much Kraig for your reply. It's a big help and I feel a lot better able to make a decision. I'm very interested in your point that lateral stiffness is not only dependant on rim and spokes, but also on axle stiffness and frame dropout/stay design aswell. I was interested in finding out the weight of these wheels, and they are not light for carbon 16 spoke wheels, at approx 1650g(without scewers). I'm not interested in weight for weights sake but for the sake of the wheel strength, and I wonder if you have any thoughts on whether this weight indicates a strong and heavy rim, and strong and heavy hub/axle which would both compensate for the low spoke count?
I suppose I’m particularly interested because both Jan Ullrich and Bjiarne Riis rode these wheels in 1996/1997 Tours, and I remember Riis was riding them in Amstel Gold classic in 1997(untill he changed to Shamals half way through for breaking reasons in the rain). Andreas Kloden won Paris Nice on a pair in 2000 despite the fact that they were then an old model Bora (don’t worry - I’m not some wheel maniac who knows what wheels every Pro rode in what race for the last 10 years - I just had a flick through some old magazines). These are all big men (particularly Ullrich) for roadmen and it strikes me that they would not ride a Bora with 16 spokes when they could demand whatever spoking they wanted (being Tour winners) if the wheel was not up to the job.
Also, Campag were still building the Bora with 14fr 16r untill 2003/2004 G3 spoking pattern, and Pros of similar height and build to myself were riding them, so it seems that it must have worked well. Any thoughts? Maybe I’m just trying to convince myself to buy them 'cause they look so good.
I have a specific question for you Kraig(or anyone else):I would buy a pair of Shamal wheels in a shot because I’ve been told so many good things about them - 16fr 16r - is there any reason why the Shamals of the same year would be any more lateraly stiff than Boras, based on the different rim materials?
I’ve not ignored your info on brake rub and how little power you actually lose - I find this fasinating because I’ve always considered it as good as fact that you would lose A LOT of power with wheels that are lateraly weak (relatively). It would seem that I’m worrying about something not that significant, but it doesn’t “feel” right to me that lateral stiffness is not extremely significant for road racing.
I didn’t order the article at the link you gave. I don’t use credit cards. Thanks all the same though. I really hope you can answer my further queries, and thanks again for the help you’ve already given.
PS. These wheels are particularly tempting because they’re going for £300 (I think about $500). Seems like a great deal!
.
Kraig, thanks very much for your last post. You've really been a big help in helping me make an informed decision. I have found everything you've said extremely interesting, and I find myself becoming more and more interested in the design and engineering side of the bike industry, particularly wheels. I would be interested in looking at your website, but it's a pay site and I don't use credit cards. Nonetheless, I'll keep up with this forum and I'm sure there will be plenty interesting thing's discussed. I may even have a query for you myself in the future.
THE BIG QUESTION!!! - What am I going to do about the wheels?? Well, I’ve thought about it a lot, and considered your input carefully, and I’ve decided not to buy them. I was strongly veering in this direction anyway, and my mind is now at ease after what you’ve said that I’m making the right decision. I don’t think the wheels are going anywhere anyway as the guy has never advertised them - only a few riders know about them - so if I do happen to change my mind in the future (which I don’t think I will) I can always go back to him.
In the meantime, I’ll keep my eyes open for any good deals on younger second hand aero wheels better suited to me. In fact, after what you’ve said about rim depth being 80% of aerodynamics, I’m toying with the idea of bonding a carbon fairing onto a coventional rim myself, like the Hed Jets, and using 32 spokes. I’ve done a little preliminary reading and it doesn’t appear too major a job. However, this is for another time, and I may try and pick the brains of “The Bunnyman” on this one, as he seems to know quite a bit about carbon.
Thanks again and happy riding.
My name is actually one of many ancient Gaelic names that begin with Fubar - the Home Land is full of Fubar’s. All of my 10 brothers are also called Fubar and my Father too, and I have given a few of their full names below. They all carry very different meanings:
Fubaruchturechenianarachtoridonoch
Fubarcannichinenachinenatanenachtan
Fubardroghineninechinochtenichinenin
Translation;
Never trust an Englishman named Cecil
Never trust an Englishman on a donkey
Never trust an Englishman with a gimp
As a mutt of less than reputable English, Irishman, and fine Indiana stock, along with some knowledge of geneology, and lastly an avid soccer fan/historian/player, I must correct you on the meaning of your name:
Fubaruchturechenianarachtoridonoch…Scotland: Football Biotch of Europe (aka, “Who’s your Daddy? Everyone”)
First of all, thank you for including my name with willet’s- it is quite flattering to see this. Willet is a TON smarter than I, as would quite agree with this statement.
The Bora is quite a stout wheel, and you don’t seem to be too heavy for this wheel. I think you would be fine on it.
There are two reasons why I prefer a flat disc. They are as follows:
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Flat disc wheels tend to have a LOT stiffer material to hold them together. You will have Nomex on a Renn or a Zipp.
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Flat discs tend to be quite a bit lighter, as the core helps to keep the weight down. You can use thinner skins on a flat disc, whereas a hollw, lenticular disc needs thicker carbon/composite material to keep it together.
Thanks very much bunnyman for your input. I thought you had declined to get involved. Your modesty is admirable, as is Kraig Willet’s, but I have had a good look at some of the old threads and you seem to know enough to be nominated an official forum “expert”. You certainly seem to have significant experience with carbon fibre, and this is especially pertinent to my questions on the Bora and Hed Superlight wheels.
You say: “The Bora is quite a stout wheel, and you don’t seem to be too heavy for this wheel. I think you would be fine on it”.
This contradicts Kraig’s gut instinct, though he qualified his opinion as it was based on instinct and theory rather than any personal experience of the wheel. Your statement suggests, however, that you have personal experience of the Bora, and I would be really interested in knowing more. Have you ridden them/owned them yourself? Do you have friends who liked them? Have you tested them? etc,etc. Do you have any thoughts on how good the quality of carbon fibre construction would have been at that time (1996/1997) compared to modern carbon rim construction (I believe the Campag carbon rims have always been made by Corima)? Do you have any personal experience of the Boras of that era? Pray sir, tell me all.
I’m very interested in what you say about disks. I am not familiar with the name “Nomex” however. Can you tell me what this is? Regarding a disks construction, is there any way that I could fill my current Hed Superlight with an appropriate material to make it stiffer - by using the large valve hole in the carbon fibre wall to insert the material? The extra weight would not concern me (unless it was A LOT) if I was going to experience a significantly stiffer ride and have a stronger more durable disk. However, as I said in my first post, I have not actually ridden the disk yet, so I would be very interested if you have any personal experience of the Superlight compared to flat solid construction disks. Coupled with that, Kraig conducted a very interesting experiment to test the effect of a wheel with poor lateral stiffness on power loss (through brake rub) and found that there was surprisingly little loss of power even with the brakes slightly rubbing continuously, so it appears that I am trying to find a solution to an imagined problem regarding the disks performance. I very much respect Kraig’s knowledge and opinion, but I would also be very interested in your input (and anyone elses for that matter) on this. Lateral stiffness does seem to have a significant effect on cornering, and this would be a worthwhile area for improvement if cornering is a weakness of the Superlight. Any thoughts?
I hope to hear from you.
Also, there seems to be quite a lot of people who have read this thread, and input from anyone and everyone who has something valuable to add would be very welcome. You don’t necessarily have to be an official forum “expert”.
One last thing bunnyman. If you don’t mind me asking, where does your name “bunnyman” come from? Is it because you are small and hairy, or because you like carrots?
Expert word from the Campy master.
I have Shamal HPW 12 and Bora, and Zipp 404 and Zipp 909.
The Shamal and Bora are much stiffer than the 404 (404 and 909 front are the same wheel).
Bora feels freaky on the brakes and you need special pads (cork). Bora is a fun light wheel - for a great deal I dont think that you could go wrong with them…but with any used carbon wheel - buyer be ware…very warry. Inspect it over and over and over, take the tire off, clean off as much glue as you can and inspect it again. Try to flex the wheel side to side and listen for creaking and pinging.
Thanks very much “Campy Master” for your input. Could you tell me please what year your Bora’s are from? They are obviously an all carbon rim from what you’ve said, and this makes me wonder if you have the new G3 model. If it is the G3 Bora that you have then I could not assume that the older model of 1996/1997 would be comparable. If it is the older model with 16FR 16RR spoking then can you let me know your size and weight, and what type of racing you have used them for so I have a clearer picture on whether they would be suitable for me.
Regardless of what model they are, how durable do you find the carbon rim in terms of normal unavoidable bumbs and knocks? Do you live in fear of knocking the rim and thus rap them up in cotton wool? Or have they received some heavy knocks and held up well?
Also, which if either do you find the stiffest, most responsive, the Shamal or Bora? Which would you choose if you absolutely had to get rid of one of them (forget about sexy appearance and your carbon fetish - yes! I know all about your carbon fetish), taking into consideration both performance and durability/dependability? All input is really appreciated.
Record10ti, as you are the official forum “Campy Master”, I would like to take the liberty of asking you a question entirely out-with this thread, regarding Campag (we don’t use the shortened “Campy” in Scotland). I’m really dissatisfied with Dura-Ace equipment and I’m thinking about becoming a real bike rider and getting Campag. There are some very good deals going on Record 9 speed groupsets here. However, there is one thing I cannot find a definitive answer on. So here is the question:
If I was to ruin a 9 speed rear mech (in a crash for example) could I buy a new 10 speed rear mech and run it with the 9 speed Ergopowers?
The official Campag website says you cannot. However, I have come across other info saying that you can, as the difference in the throw of the mech is actually tiny, and you can change the pulley wheels and cage to accommodate a 9 speed chain. I never want to have a 10 speed group, so if this cannot be done then I must resign myself to remaining a Shimano gringo!!
Your title of the “Campy Master” is on the line hear Record10ti, and I hope you will step up to the plate and deliver.
Thanks very much “Campy Master” for your input. Could you tell me please what year your Bora’s are from? They are obviously an all carbon rim from what you’ve said, and this makes me wonder if you have the new G3 model. If it is the G3 Bora that you have then I could not assume that the older model of 1996/1997 would be comparable. If it is the older model with 16FR 16RR spoking then can you let me know your size and weight, and what type of racing you have used them for so I have a clearer picture on whether they would be suitable for me. Mine are NOT the G3 and are circa 1998-1999 or something like that. They are 16x16 if I recall properly. I think I was curious why they did not just use 12 spokes like the Shamall HPW 12 and was just as dismayed when the Shamal went to 16 spokes a couple years back (I didnt like the black rim and hub either)
Regardless of what model they are, how durable do you find the carbon rim in terms of normal unavoidable bumbs and knocks? Do you live in fear of knocking the rim and thus rap them up in cotton wool? Or have they received some heavy knocks and held up well? I would have to say that the rim is not as solid as the Zipp rim. Specifically, in the brake track. There is often black dust on my brakes after I am on the Bora, not so with the Zipp - my impression was that the Zipp has a harder and thus more long lasting brake track. I have not heard of wrapping rims in Cotton or wool - I tend to wrap them with a Vittora Corsa CX and ride at 150+ psi on bad roads. I have not busted a carbon rim - I am careful with them though.
Also, which if either do you find the stiffest, most responsive, the Shamal or Bora? Which would you choose if you absolutely had to get rid of one of them (forget about sexy appearance and your carbon fetish - yes! I know all about your carbon fetish), taking into consideration both performance and durability/dependability? All input is really appreciated. I would say that the stiffest is the Shamal, the Bora is a bit quicker in a Crit though. Less mass makes for smarter cornering. I have NO carbon fettish at all.
Record10ti, as you are the official forum “Campy Master”, I would like to take the liberty of asking you a question entirely out-with this thread, regarding Campag (we don’t use the shortened “Campy” in Scotland). I’m really dissatisfied with Dura-Ace equipment and I’m thinking about becoming a real bike rider and getting Campag. There are some very good deals going on Record 9 speed groupsets here. However, there is one thing I cannot find a definitive answer on. So here is the question:
If I was to ruin a 9 speed rear mech (in a crash for example) could I buy a new 10 speed rear mech and run it with the 9 speed Ergopowers? I HAVE run a Chorus 10 rear Der with a Record9 Carbon shift lever and 9 speed chain. There was a bit of chatter in some gears but not that bad. We must remember that these days with “compatibility” there is often less than .1mm change - add that up over 10 cogs and you have only 1mm of diffrence…so can you use one - yes. Will Campy say to? No, will it shift 100% like a pure to spec grouppo? Probably not.
The official Campag website says you cannot. However, I have come across other info saying that you can, as the difference in the throw of the mech is actually tiny, and you can change the pulley wheels and cage to accommodate a 9 speed chain. I never want to have a 10 speed group, so If this cannot be done then I must resign myself to remaining a Shimano gringo!!
Your title of the “Campy Master” is on the line hear Record10ti, and I hope you will step up to the plate and deliver.
Done!
Good luck with your wheels, or is it wheals.
Record 10ti
Thanks very much for your response, answering all my questions. You have officially confirmed your title as “Campy Master”.
Everything you have said has given me a much better picture on the Boras, and I need to have a think about whether the durability specifically at the brake track is something that will put me off buying them. I’m going to take my time now to think about the information I’ve been given on this thread before I make my decision. I really appreciate you taking the time to help.
I’m delighted that you could give me the definitive “Campy Master” answer on the 10 speed rear mech/9speed Ergopower question. I would be happy combining them, so I can now raise myself out of the Shimano gutter and become a bona fide cyclist. I’ve even been told that I will ride at least 5mph faster on Campag compared to Shimano. Can’t wait!!!
Lastly - I noticed that you didn’t respond to my request for your size and weight to see if we are comparable in terms of strain on the wheels. May I suggest that you re-name yourself Mrs.Record10ti so that we all know not to ask you such impolite questions. Please accept my apologies for being so rude.
Thanks again.
P.S - You are clearly in denial about you carbon fetish!!!
Thanks very much Docfuel for doing that (you’ve actually missed deleting one of your posts). I’ll delete this post when I know you’ve read it so the thread runs smoothly.
"A"ppreciated.
"A"ll the best.
Sorry about the size thing - 6 foot 165-170lbs…at the time I was on the Boras I was a 175lbs Cat2 pack bully.
Let me start by apologising that I have not been able to keep up to date on the Forum, I am on holiday to the U.K.
I am a furry guy with long ears, and have a daughter named Trixie, who is also long-eared like me.
I do believe you are spot-on with your assessment of the Campy rims. Corima makes some of the nicest rims on the market.
I only have second-hand experience with the Boras, but have gotten these impressions via very good sources (i.e. VERY, VERY rough on equipment) and these guys can flex all but the stiffest things.
Carbon technology in this end of the spectrum has only changed in one way: price. The upper spectrum has trickled down, and I would say that it has not changed significantly from then. We won’t find any carbon/carbon for a very, very long time, I am afraid…
You would significantly increase the weight of this disc by filling it with a foam. You would probably mix up quite a bit of spray foam (that is NOT what one buys at the DIY shops) and add up to a pound of material, not worth the weight unless you were a 16 stone gorilla!!! I would not do anything to your disc, as it WILL void any warranties.
I have not ridden the Superlite, but did ride an older standard, and did not like it. I preferred the solid construction and stiffness afforded by it. But, many people DO like this disc. It is probably personal preference, but I like the flat, solid core discs like the Renn, Zipp, and Corima. I will call it bias on my part.
I do respect everything that Kraig Willet says, and will defer to his findings. The lateral stiffness could be very well an imagined problem. I like stiff, and sloppy makes me feel very uneasy, as many things too flexy that I have built tend to break apart.
Again, I appreciate your confidence in what I have to say.