Broken Frame - Help!

Triathlon Forum
1

I recently had the misfortune of finding a crack on my beloved 1 1/2 year-old carbon fiber frame, midway down the seatstay. It was a clean break that I noticed while cleaning my bike prior to my long Saturday ride.

It surprised me because the majority of my riding for the two weeks prior to discovering the crack consisted of multi-hour sessions inside on my trainer due to the rain outside. My bike has not gone down - ever, and is stored safely in a nearly-empty closet under the stairs.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased it, and though they couldn’t make a decisive call, they said that it appeared not to be an impact damage because there were no scratches anywhere on the frame, or around the crack itself. They called the frame manufacturer the following day who said the frame would have to be fed-ex’d for further examination before a warranty call could be made.

The frame manufacturer examined it and said that it had to have been caused by an impact, even though there were no scratches or other visible signs of impact. They suggested that it could have happened in a bike box. Problem is, the last (and first) time my bike was in a box was on June 28th, 2004, on my return from IMCDA. Many miles, and a couple races, have been put on the bike between then and now, so it would be surprising that a crack in the carbon frame would not have broken between then and now. Not to mention that I clean my frame regularly, so the chance that I would not have noticed the crack between then and now would be slim - the crack was quite visible.

To add insult to injury, the company of course didn’t have any replacement frames in stock due to “production issues.” So, even though my frame wasn’t going to be covered by warranty, I wasn’t able to purchase a replacement!

After some serious back-and-forth, the best they could do was offer me a refurbished frame at a reduced price, however not the same frame as mine, but the model below which, though it is a nice frame, is not the frame I paid for! Anyway, I almost accept that delays are as commonplace in this sport as are multi-hundred dollar race entry fees (not complaining about fees here, those races are generally worth every penny), so I felt happy to get my hands on any frame. In any event, at this point I empathized with the company’s “production issues”, and was thankful that a refurbished frame was a possibility.

Then when I went to the bike shop to pick up (PAY FOR) my “new” (refurbished) frame, they reiterated their surprise that the manufacturer didn’t cover my frame under warranty. They then mentioned to me that the manufacturer encouraged the bike shop to mark-up the “new” (refurbished) frame 100% and charge me labor to reassemble! The bike shop said ‘no effin’ way’ since they felt I was getting shafted as it was. Great bike store customer service by the way, they went above and beyond… At this point my empathy for the company’s “production issues” were flying out the door about as quickly as a water bottle flies out of a saddle-mounted Xlab when riding over train tracks.

Here are my questions:

  1. Has anyone experienced a frame cracking from excessive use on a trainer? This is the only way I can conceive of it breaking - the rear wheel is locked in, and there is some amount of flexion in the frame with the lateral movement caused by the rider in the saddle, which seems like it could conceivably fatigue. I am a fairly efficient cyclist (meaning, not an excessive amount of lateral movement), and only get out of my saddle for perhaps a total of 30 seconds over the course of a 2-hour+ trainer session just to stretch my legs.

  2. Is it conceivable that a seatstay cracked in transit in June would not have broken in the 8+ months since, with easily 1,000 miles and a couple races on it?

  3. Is there any recourse once the frame manufacturer has made the “no-fault” decision? Or is it simply my word against theirs?

  4. Has anyone heard of insurance covering frame damage?

  5. Is it customary for a manufacturer to keep the cracked frame once it’s shipped in? They stated that it’s industry practice. Is that true? I paid for it…even if it’s broken I’d like to have it. Heck, it’s a work of art…i’ll hang it on the wall!

Any thoughts/suggestions/advice would be helfpul. I hate to sound like a whiner, but this has been a pretty lame experience given that the crack mysteriously “showed up” one day. If I knew the crack was caused by me, the case would be closed, but given the mystery surrounding the crack and the absence of any evidence, I’m simply trying to figure out what my options are, beyond just “sucking it up.”

Thanks in advance…

p.s. apologies for the thesis…this was somewhat therapeutic!

2

Can you name the company? or is it on the list of untouchables?

Similar thing happened to a friend of mine. His brand new carbon frame disintegrated beneath him while on a group ride…the manufacturer refused to believe that he didn’t drive the thing into the top of his garage door…until he produced written statements from the 15 people who had been with him at the time.

Any warranty is only as good as the intentions of its author…they have so many “outs” for the manufacturer and the burden of proof is always on the purchaser. If a manufacturer doesn’t want to honor a warranty you’re usually screwed.

Legally the frame is still yours…have an attorney give them a call…your best friend Bob will do…just have him lie. You’ll get the frame back in a day or two.

3

"After some serious back-and-forth, the best they could do was offer me a refurbished frame at a reduced price, however not the same frame as mine, but the model below which, though it is a nice frame, is not the frame I paid for! "

I can’t believe that you settled for paying for a model-blow refurbished frame.

"Is it customary for a manufacturer to keep the cracked frame once it’s shipped in? They stated that it’s industry practice. Is that true? I paid for it…even if it’s broken I’d like to have it. Heck, it’s a work of art…i’ll hang it on the wall! "

I would understand that they keep that frame when sending you a new one, but to keep it while you have to buy another one? That sound’s wrong.

Tell us, what company was that bike from?

4

Well, this is a somewhat unusual occurance based on my experience.

That said, it is a typical warranty situation in that we are talking about racing equipment optimized for performance but with a set of expectations that are similar to what you would assign to Craftsman tools.

I guess one analogy, possibly flawed to some degree, I would make would be if a NASCAR race car were damaged or failed during a race, would that be an automotive warranty situation?

Now cleary, that is an extremem comparison. But I suggest it is more common for an incoming consumer at the point of purchase to ask questions such as, “How light is this?” as opposed to “How resistant is this to impact?” We do get both, but selling a frame that adds 1-3 pounds of additional material for increased durability would be a tough sell next to a bike 1-3 pounds lighter.

The practice of keeping the warrantied frame is standard practice to prevent it from being E-Bayed or falling into competitors hands for analysis/forensic engineering/benchmarking.

Also, while I know this doesn’t make you feel any better and I certainly empathize with you, in order for a bike company to provide you with a new frame for your broken one, regardless of the circumstances, erases the profit margin from their next, I dunno, 10-15 sales? Not too many guys can foot the bill for that even if they wanted to. Their denial of your (possibly valid) warranty claim may be more of an economic decision that a customer service one. just guessing…

5

That quality of customer service sounds familiar…

I’d rather not broadcast the name of the manufacturer, at least not while the case is still active (at least in my mind…). I’m (naively) still holding a glimmer of hope that something can be done…publicly lambasting them probably won’t help my cause.

6

Also you have demonstrated you are a gentleman or a lady (whichever the case may be) by rising above and taking the higher road.

I respect that and you.

7

The guy it happened to has a pretty keen sense of humor. He took the frame to the manufacturer in person and had them inspect it…they still maintained that the bike had signs of an impact…he lifted his shirt and showed them his bruises and road rash from the spill he took when the frame failed and said …"You mean like these signs of impact…of course it has signs of impact, I was doing 25 mph when the thing came apart…we both impacted the ground pretty hard.

If he’d been riding alone without 15 witnesses he’d be $3,000 out of pocket right now.

8

"I can’t believe that you settled for paying for a model-blow refurbished frame. "

Yeah, that was a tough call, but my options were limited: 1) have no frame for an unspecified amount of time, thereby jeopardizing my training for both Wildflower and IMCDA, or 2) take the only option presented to me.

My back was pretty much up against the wall. They also gave me the refurbished frame at a low price…though they tried to get the bike shop to mark it up…

9

The guy it happened to has a pretty keen sense of humor. He took the frame to the manufacturer in person and had them inspect it…

If this happened in SF and the guy didn’t go too far out of his way to physically show up on the premises of the manufacturer…

ot

10

Legally it may not be yours. If he didn’t agree to take the replacement frame at a reduced price then yeah its his frame. I suspect the company in questionb considers the deal to be the cash and the old frame for the new frame.

Styrrell

11

he did have to travel quite a bit…and combined it with a work trip. It wasn’t a bay area manufacturer.

12

“…in order for a bike company to provide you with a new frame for your broken one, regardless of the circumstances, erases the profit margin from their next, I dunno, 10-15 sales? Not too many guys can foot the bill for that even if they wanted to. Their denial of your (possibly valid) warranty claim may be more of an economic decision that a customer service one. just guessing…”

If a bike company can’t afford to fulfill the warranty that they’re unobligated to provide - yet do - then they should not manufacture bicycles. Just a thought.

13

That said, it is a typical warranty situation in that we are talking about racing equipment optimized for performance but with a set of expectations that are similar to what you would assign to Craftsman tools.

I guess one analogy, possibly flawed to some degree, I would make would be if a NASCAR race car were damaged or failed during a race, would that be an automotive warranty situation?

Now cleary, that is an extremem comparison. But I suggest it is more common for an incoming consumer at the point of purchase to ask questions such as, “How light is this?” as opposed to “How resistant is this to impact?” We do get both, but selling a frame that adds 1-3 pounds of additional material for increased durability would be a tough sell next to a bike 1-3 pounds lighter.

I’m surprised by your argument. Are you saying that bike consumers have too high an expectation regarding the life of race bikes? If that’s the case, then it seems to me that the expectation is caused by bike manufacturers who sell bikes with warranties. The warranty gives consumers the perception that the product will last for the warranted time period since the manufacturer appears willing to back the product. If a race bike manufacturer simply said, “this is a limited-life ultra light race product, no warranty is provided,” then consumers wouldn’t have an expection that the frame will last. Of course, if frame manufacturers offered no warranties, they probably would not sell many bikes. But you can’t blame it on the consumer. Regardless of consumer demand, if you decide to get in the business of making frames and offering warranties, your bike and better be up to the standards of the warranty and you better plan on honoring your warranty when the product fails, for if you don’t you are not being honest and don’t have an honest business plan.

HH

14

I have a problem with the 10-15 sales, especially if they have liability insurance on those frames. One guy I spoke to pays roughly $50.00 USD per frame in liability costs. Certainly, the premiums would increase, but this cost would be relatively small compared to losing business.

I know for a fact that if warrantying products , bicycle products in particular, if one warranty return impacted the margin for 10-15 units, a recall would have put several people (one I know personally, infact) out of business.

15

I will agree that it was an economic decision, on the bike company’s part, but your assessment of one warranty exchange equaling 10-15 units worth of profit is a bit extreme. Maybe one to five; maybe six at the most. One person I know would not be in business today if that were the case on his low margin part when he had to recall several items on a bonding defect. He could have said, “Sorry dude, you were racing that (item). Racing can kill you. Even though you were just riding along and that (item) delaminated, I think you crashed it. Wanna buy an other (item)?” That would have sunk his business.

If you don’t carry product liability insurance, I can see where this would impact your bottom line.

Crappy decision on their part.

16

Unfortunately, this is already a done deal according to you accpeting the used frame.

If you are not allowed to broadcast the name of who screwed you, broadcast their name on every single forum and even get your own website to broadcast their name. This story has broken my bullshit meter’s movement. I have to find the little swiss guy and see if he can fix it.

Seriously, my regret in one instance was NOT publicly lambasting the frame builder who lied, cheated, and stole my money; all in the hopes of getting my wrongs righted. But, you had better make your name public if you are going to do that.

Did you ever take a picture of this frame? You should have. Also, I will side with the manufacturer that the frame is theirs, unless you are willing to trade your used bike back for the broken frame. This will help make your case. But I fear you are shit out of luck.