"Bonk" Training. Good Idea?

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m doing a 45-mile ride tomorrow. Hoping to be out there for up to 3 hours (wind determines that or not). I was planning on only taking water with me. It was explained to me early in my training that doing so allowed your body to focus on burning fat for fuel rather than the sugar in “performance drinks”. . They called this “bonk” training so that’s where I got the name from.

What duration of workout is about the max that you should do with “water alone”? Should I take “something sugary” just in case?

2

I did a similar ride couple of week ago in the wind and rain with only water for company. The last 2 miles was a gentle climb which I normally sail thru. Having reached the summit I was totally shot away, legs gone and felt dizzy. Won’t be doing that again - be careful and take a couple of gels with you just in case you feel the need. If not - burn baby burn :wink:

3

There is no way this type of ride would make sense for me. I would need to take endurolytes with me - I sweat like crazy, and depending on the temp, would lose a lot of salt in 3 hours.

I find that if my intensity is low, bonking really isn’t going to be a problem and I can do without the carbs for a few hours.

4

I have no idea if that (bonk training) helps. (some coaches I have read said keeping your pulse below 180 minus your age keeps you burning fat.)???

BUT, You might want some source of Sodium (and possibly potassium) to prevent hyponatremia, if you are going that long with water only.

5

Hey Fireproof–TT,

Hmmmm, interesting. I guess the first question I would ask about this training is: What is the goal? But you did answer that question- It sounds lke you want to emphasize and isolate your so-called “fat burning fuel system”.

I’m not a coach, and my understanding of nutritional and physiological processes in trainig is rudimentary at best.

I might suggest an alternate approach however. What you are saying about avoiding simple sugars as fuel, and the resultant insuline spikes and dependancy on a constant flo of simply carbohydrates is a good idea.

However, rather than just use water to remain hydrated and work toward an eventual state of glycogen depletion (bonk) I might suggest a more moderate approach where you would use a non-simple suger carbohydrate fuel source such as Hammer Nutrition Perpetuem or Sustained Energy (no guys, I don;t sell it- but I think we will soon).

These fuel sources will give you the energy you need to acheive your training goals and improve your fitness and adaptation, and wieght loss also eventually, but not subject you to the undesireable effects of low blood sugar.

That way, during the whole ride you will have a consistent source of complex carbohydrate as well as the minerals and electrolyte, fats and proteins to be able to benefit from the workout and recovery efficiently so you can go out and do it again.

My wager is that your approach may not be as effective as you think for weight loss. That the body will crave simple sugars afterward and you’ll provide those calories which then may be stored quickly as adipose tissue (fat) once the short term carbohydrate need is met with sugary foods.

Well, sounds like you are going out tomorrow so it isn;t like you can just reach in the cabinet for two scoops of Perpetuem unless you alreay have some.

I would take a “plan B” with you. Some type of efficient energy source, be a couple gels, an evergy bar or two- just to bail you out if you really do become depleted.

Remember, having low blood sugar effects your balance and judgement. It can slow your reaction time. Be careful with this. Don’t push it too hard.

Good luck tomorrow. If you think of it, please report back to us on your experience. Good luck and safe riding.

6

Sorry I should add that it will be 49 degrees as a high, likely 15-20mph winds. Sweating? I’d say the average amount for a male.

Tom – I don’t know that the whole concept was explained to me, and at the time I was doing rides between 1-1.5 hours. That’s why I asked what was the max duration for water only. I don’t know if they would advise the same thing for a 3 hour ride or not. . Also, does anyone consume any protein during the ride or towards the end to prevent muscle being broken down for energy? It’s been so long since I reviewed energy systems that I don’t remember at what point the body recruits any and all processes for energy sources.

I am just now getting into long rides, b/c I decided to do a ~1/2IM instead of just Sprints and Olys, so I haven’t used/tried any triathlon performance products. My LBS is an hour away, so I won’t be stopping by before my ride. What are some products I can grab from say, the gas station/convenient store on my out? I usually just grab some gatorage, but maybe a salty snack, or a powerbar or something?

I haven’t used supplements yet b/c I found out from weight lifting that if you can progress without them and then add them in later, you can sustain progress for a longer time. I applied it to triathlon training --erroneously or not, I don’t know. I admit I know very little about the details of triathlon training.

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Hmmm, I was trying to think of something to recommend you could get at the convenience store tomorrow before the ride. I don’t know. I think you might be on track with the salty stuff. Salty snacks tend to be like nuts, etc, which has protein as well as some necessary fats. They may be a good alternative except for the gastric ramifications. It depends on how well you do with nuts during a ride. I would imagine you would want to be very well hydrated and, odd as this sounds, really chew them well before swallowing them.

Most convenience stores have energy bars now. I still like the original PowerBar Performance energy bar. The Balance bars have some reasonable relationship of proteins, carbohydrates and fats too I think. It has been a long time since I read a label.

I guess I might hit the convenience store before the ride and read some labels to get some ideas. sometimes stuff like a PayDay bar can surprise you with their nutritional content. It may not be as bad as you think, whereas some of the energy bars aren’t much better than a traditional candy
bar.

Anyway, it seems like you are taking the right approach- trying things in training and asking good questions.

Report back if you remember and, as I said, good luck be careful.

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Fireproof – TT,

Surprising that with all the experience on this forum, no one has indicated that “bonking” is generally not recommended, ever. “Bonking” occurs as energy sources are used up and the body can no longer supply the energy needs to sustain the effort. As one continues the effort, the body begins to feed on itself in order to sustain the effort, however meager that effort becomes because this method of supplying energy is very inefficient as well as very destructive to the body.

The recovery from “bonking” can take upwards of two weeks and hard efforts during this recovery period prolong the recovery as well as produce results that are less than expected because the body has not fully recovered from its “injury” (feasting on itself.)

Most all experienced athletes try to avoid “bonking” whenever possible. It is a setback to one’s training or performance to say the least.

You would be wise to rethink your nutritional needs for your planned effort, even during training, to prevent “bonking” and setting your progress back, rather than moving yourself forward.

Most of us do experience at least one “bonk” in the course of climbing the learning curve and if we learn nothing else, we learn how unpleasant this experience is. A typical response is the desire to just crawl into a hole and die rather than to endure the agony.

Good luck with your training.

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TT, grab a flapjack or cake bar from the store on the way out, or make and take a PB and jelly sandwich cut into small squares. Thats what the boys on tdf have in their feed bags, an’ if its good enough for them…

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Surprising that with all the experience on this forum, no one has indicated that “bonking” is generally not recommended, ever.<

-much good advice snipped-

Further, I learned a few weeks ago in a seminar taught by an exercise physiologist (at Troy Jacobson’s Mid-Atlantic Expo) that the immune system is significantly suppressed after “bonking.” It’s a good way to open the door to a virus.

David

11

Weather: 48-51 degrees. Wind 15-22mph out of the South. Ride: 45 miles in 2:57:54

1st 40 minutes was directly into the strong headwind. I glanced to my right to see a bird flying to the South and not moving … it tucked to the right and tried something else. I thought to myself, “Even that bird is smarter than you”.

I didn’t drink anything for the first 40 minutes. I told myself I could have a drink of water, once the road veered to the right … heading west … out of the headwind. Punishment Workout for myslf since I quit early on a swim workout yesterday, b/c I was “too tired”]

The cross wind wasn’t too bad. Riding with a 20mph wind to your back … it doesn’t really need to be described does it? I drank a 24oz gatorade for the rest of the ride.

The last 40 minutes is a straight into the wind, bunch of rolling hills that honestly … just suck. As a pure instrument of Symbolism, my turnaround point is wolf creek cemetary. As I turn around to what I know is going to be some of the longest minutes of my life/training, I let out a good old-fashioned gutteral grizzly-roar that would make William Wallace (Braveheart) proud. The next 40 minutes sucked, and sucked worse. I talked myself out of stopping it seemed about every 0.5 mile. BUt, I kept pedaling sometime just taking the road a meter at a time.

Towards the end, my quads were getting crampy and knees were a little achy … by this point I’m soaked and starting to get a little cold.

So for 3 hours of good paced riding (for me) and into a pretty good wind, I drank 20 oz of water and 24 oz of Gatorade and did fine … not optimal … but fine. . I will take your guys’ advise into consideration and start trying different things before the ride to see what gets me the best rsults. Thanks a bunch.

PBJ’s huh? Who knew you could use something in endurance training that wasn’t over-priced and had a logo on it? Amazing. Really. wink

Thanks for your comments I really appreciate them.

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Punishment workout? Dude, training is a reward. Never punishment.

Good work though. I can tell your mental toughness is exceptional. That is a huge asset.

Thanks for the report, glad you made it back safe.

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“Sorry I should add that it will be 49 degrees as a high, likely 15-20mph winds.”

Yeah, it is in the 80’s right now in the Bay Area - I am working up a sweat just typing…

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I believe it is still a generally accepted physiological fact that you can not significantlytrain the “fat burning system”. Fat needs carbohydrate to burn as a fire needs oxygen. Without caloric intake your energy processing is essentially shutting down. The current recommendations are for 250-400 calories of carbo an hour for workouts over 1 hour. What is a better workout: 45 miles in 3 hours on 200 calories or 50 miles in 3 hours on 750 calories?

15

“Fat needs carbohydrate to burn as a fire needs oxygen. Without caloric intake your energy processing is essentially shutting down.”

I’ve heard this before but have not been able to find any physiological reason for it to be true. Can you point me to a link or article that might explain it further?

~Matt

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BTW, welcome to ST Matt. RyanB.

In the future, I’ll be asking questions about what energy/carb products you guys like/recommend, so I can find what is optimal for me. I’ve got basically 14 weeks to the ~1/2IM, with two weekends of sprint races … so 12 weekends to try and find the right product for the father’s day race (6/20).

FWIW, 45 miles in under 3 hours with 1:30 of that going into a head wind seemed way too fast (for me). So, while downing a Myoplex MRP (EAS) I drove the course … and it’s actually 37 miles. Just for accuracy/honesty sake. It’s about 1/3 facing South, a 1/3 facing north and 1/3 going E to W, so it’ll make a pretty good training course to compare all sorts of different variables.

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Here’s a great suggestion about PBJ’s that’ll help with the ride… Go to your local grocer’s freezer section, and find “UnCrustables”. PBJ that’s individually packaged, frozen, and sealed all around to prevent leaks. Just throw one into your jersey pocket before the long ride, and let it thaw (while keeping you a little cooler!) and when you need it, you’ll have yourself a self-contained pbj that’s ready to eat. I think one little sandwich is about 300 cals or so (but I don’t have it in front of me to verify!) and they are an awesome snack!

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I am unable to find any evidence supporting this, but have found evidence refuting it.: The Triathlete’s Training Bible, pg 274 under diet and performance.

“One of the downsides resulting from eating a high carbohydrate, low fat diet is a greater production of lactic acid by the muscles during excercise, and even at rest. This is probably the result of the body using carbohydrate preferentially for fuel when it is abundantly available, while not burning as much fat. Carbohydrate seems to “turn off” the body’s fat-utilization process.”

Before anybody flames me, here is another quote from the sidebar of the same book, same chapter: “Sports Nutrition is an Evolving Science.”

Now on the subject of fatty acid oxidation, the process of burning fat instead of glycogen for energy, I was taught in my personal trainer certification course that this process begins only after an hour or so of low-key strictly aerobic excercise. This means going long and keeping the heart rate down. For me this is about 55min of running at the 150 to 155 bpm range. At this point your body switches over to burning fat for energy. For those of us that race longer distances, or are presently building base miles, this is a crucial step in training because it also encourages our cells to produce more mitachondria. The mitachondria in our cells are the mechanism by which our boddies convert fatty acids into ATP which is the energy that our muscles use. So the more you build base, the more mitachondria your cells will have, the easier it is for your body to utilize your fat for energy, and save the glycogen for the sprint at the end.

I did not mean to go on so long, sorry. Feel free to disagree, I love to be wrong because it means I have learned something. I have a thought on fatty acid oxidation but I will give it it’s own thread.

Jim

19

bump.

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From what I know, your body doesn’t burn fat as its primary fuel source until muscle glycogen is depleted. This is why you burn fat after a hard workout … especially strength training (glycogen depleted). No carbs left for fuel source, so fat-burning takes over for body processes.

I was just skimming Colgan’s book and he basically says that the best thing you can do is load up on carbs before exercising (i.e. glycogen stores full), because it’s much more effective that carb intake during exercise (glycogen gets depleted after about 3 hours of low-effort exercise). But, for IM comps, it says 90% of their energy for the last part of the race is from carbs consumed during exercise (the race).

Fat is basically the most valuable energy source your body has … so it burns it last. Most know that we 9 kcals from 1g of fat and only 4 from carb & protein, so the body burns fat as a last resort. IMO, this is why I was advised previously to not eat carbs during training (for fat loss), b/c you’ll burn the carbs before you burn the fat (for fuel). Remember I was doing 1-hour rides, not 3-hour rides.

This is basic cell phys and A&P stuff … it shouldn’t be too hard for us to find the answer we’re looking for.