Bike Selection Help - P3 vs. 04 Blade?

Triathlon Forum
1

I am a top 1/3 finisher in the local tris. 35 yr old - father of one (hopefully more). 6-1 and 185 depending on lunch. I will motor in at about 24 mph pushing fairly large gears. Run 7-7:15 miles. Not going to win Ironman but good enough to keep me fit and give me a challenge. I have always used Kestrels but I am disappointed in: 1) Chinese manufacturing at that price point and 2) the multi piece carbon frame - the Talon and the '04 KM40 redo. They have lost their sex appeal to me.

With that said - I have looked at all of the Tri-bikes available and have come up with 2 that I like (I must admit coolness plays a factor) and feel comfortable on.

  1. The Cervelo P3. Just for curiousity is this made in Taiwan? Is '04 the last of the P3?

  2. Litespeed '04 Blade. It is my understanding that the Blade will use the Vortex top tube, have internal wiring, and the seat post column will extend further.

The problem with test riding them both is: 1) I can’t ride the '04 Blade bc it does not yet exist but the ride should be similar to the '03, 2) It is really hard to get an idea of fatigue over a 5-10 mile loop around the bike shop. All new bikes feel good over 5 miles.

As I stated earlier - I am not going to win the Ironman but every advantage that can be gained is good. And these bikes are really cool.

Assuming price is not an object - which one do you guys prefer?

Here are the advantages I see:

Blade:
Stronger material-brushed ti finish is very nice and durable
Lifetime Warranty
Isn’t Ti more comfortable??
To me Reynolds makes the best fork

Cervelo P3:
More Aero
More progressive design
Adjustable seat tube angle

2

the P3 is made in the USA (designed in Canada). Though I’d concern myself more with the Quality Control and Warranty of the manufacturer than where the thing is put together. Besides the Italians, who’s better at carbon fiber layup than the Taiwanese? (to grossly overgeneralize).

out of curiosity, why would you choose the Blade over the Saber. The profile of the blade tubeset is not aerodynamic, Ti isn’t moldable enough to do that. So, if there’s no aero advantage, why not save the weight by getting the Saber?

the other thing I’d point out is that these bikes have to feel radically different. Different materials designed around different goals and principles. Setting aside the default forum pitch of “buy based on fit”, you should ride the '03 blade for now, any changes will most likely be incremental (when Litespeed isn’t being incremental they usually give the bike a new name, come to think of it they give out names even when they’re just being incremental).

3

I’m biased because I just got a P3, although I’m still waiting for it. I really don’t know much about the Litespeeds but I do have a titanium road bike. It does have a nice ride, but for tri’s I want any aero advantage I can get. If putting on a set of wheels that look like stop signs and riding on a saddle made from brick would make me faster I’d do it.

I’ll save the comfort rides for my long road rides and when I’m racing I want speed. If the ride is a little harsh or the course I’m doing is known to be rough, I’ll use a different saddle for that race. I would still want the faster bike under me though.

4

I am a top 1/3 finisher in the local tris. 35 yr old - father of one (hopefully more). 6-1 and 185 depending on lunch. I will motor in at about 24 mph pushing fairly large gears. Run 7-7:15 miles. Not going to win Ironman but good enough to keep me fit and give me a challenge. I have always used Kestrels but I am disappointed in: 1) Chinese manufacturing at that price point and 2) the multi piece carbon frame - the Talon and the '04 KM40 redo. They have lost their sex appeal to me.

With that said - I have looked at all of the Tri-bikes available and have come up with 2 that I like (I must admit coolness plays a factor) and feel comfortable on.

  1. The Cervelo P3. Just for curiousity is this made in Taiwan? Is '04 the last of the P3?

  2. Litespeed '04 Blade. It is my understanding that the Blade will use the Vortex top tube, have internal wiring, and the seat post column will extend further.

Hi, if you want to see the 2004 blade try this: http://photoalbum.powershot.de/fotos/42/44//a1f8a9d661c87782cbae60d1ce605adb.jpg

Password is “RTFA” ← capital letters

Frank

5

Isn’t the new Talon SL a one-piece monocoque frame?

Dude, what tris are you racing? I’m in your age group (same size and family situation too) and those kind of numbers where I race - throughout Florida - put you around the top 10%. Move to FL and pick up some hardware!

PS. Haven’t ridden it, but the Blade is sweet looking.

6

The Talon and Talon SL are multi-piece cf frames, not monocoque like their KM40 or 500/300/200 series bikes.

7

Brad-

That is a very good question. I never really looked into the Saber as the guy at my local shop pushed the Blade as a more aero alternative. Truth be told - it was probably an easy push bc the Blade looks exotic and the Saber somewhat pedestrian.

FYI - Litespeed’s tech support claims that the aero advantage of the P3 is nearly zero over the 04 Blade. Obviously they are paid advocates but who knows? Litespeed also claims the Blade is more aero than the Saber - but who knows?

8

Also, consider the P2K with a set of nice race wheels rather than a P3. A P2K with a Hed3 and a Renn disk will cost less than a P3 with Ritchey training wheels, but it will be faster.

The P3 is a great frame, but it’s not twice as great as a P2K.

9

What kind of races are you planning on doing? Mostly sprints and Olympic distance? Or are you leaning towards 1/2 IM and IM distance? Comfort becomes a bigger factor over the long haul. A lot can be done with tires, saddles, seatposts etc., but for comfort, I’d pick the Saber over the P3 over the Blade. I believe they ‘softened’ the Blade in '03, but it is still positioned as strong and stiff for maximum power delivery. That is great for strong riders over short distances, maybe not so good over 112. Aero differences are arguably small, rider, wheels, and fork would make a bigger difference.

I have an older Tachyon that I have been riding with great success, and I haven’t seen a new bike that makes me think I am going to be any faster, but I have taken a close look at all 3 of the bikes you are talking about. Ti makes for a lifetime frame, so if you don’t like buying bikes every few years, it’s better. If you like getting new bikes all the time, it’s less of an issue.

10

I like the Cervelo and went with the P2K, however I must admit that 2004 Blade looks awesome…

11

Until it was crushed by an S10 pickup, I had an 03 Saber with all the good stuff (DA, Profile Carbon X, Ouzo Pro Aero fork, Spinergy Xaero-Lite training wheels, Aspide tri saddle, USE alien carbon post, etc. . .). That bike was a great tri-bike. I loved riding it, especially on longer rides. The only reason I’m not going with another one to replace it is that I want 700 wheels so I can share aero wheels with my road bike. A 53cm 700 Saber is a special order item and I don’t have the $$ to get that far. I highly recommend the Saber.

12

Hey move to Missouri with those times you won’t need a new bike! : )
I ride a P3 and love it . It’s very stiff but feels much less harsh on the rough roads than my QR.

13

I will be riding 1/2 IM and mostly Olympic (greater availability). I like to do 4-5 races per year to keep myself fresh and motivated.

Keep in mind - I plan to do most of my training on the bike that I race on.

14

The new Blade 04 looks awesome! I work at bike shop and have seen it before the 2004 pre-season orders were placed.

Aerodynamically, I could not tell you which is better. That’s a John Cobb question. We sell a lot of Litespeeds and our customers raive about them. We also carry Cervelo but just not as many due to lack of demand.

Good luck in your search. Be patient and wait to ride both bicycles so there’s never that “What if…” question in the back of your mind.

Happy training,

Mike

15

I do almost all my training on my Tachyon, from Computrainer sessions, to 100+ rides. I have done 17 races this season, including Powerman AL, 2 1/2 IM’s (Blackwater Eagleman, Paul Bunyon), a couple of du’s, a bunch of sprints and Olympics and am racing in Kona in 4.5 weeks. For short races, I put on a USE Alien carbon seatpost and Selle Italia SLR saddle to save some weight. For 1/2 IM’s and long training rides, I put on a Thompson seatpost, Selle Italia Flite saddle, and Profile Aquarack. I didn’t want to clamp the water bottle rack to the carbon seatpost. I race on a HED Jet front, and Disc rear with Tufo S3 lite 19mm tires @ 145+ psi, and train on Dura Ace/Velocity wheels with Michelin’s (the black and green ones).

I don’t have any problems with comfort when training or in long races, or with power delivery/aerodynamics in shorter races. I went sub 2:20 at both my 1/2’s, and generally go under an hour in Olympics, so my 6 year old, nearly round tubed, ti bike is plenty fast. I have yet to be convinced that a lighter/stiffer/more aero bike is going to significantly improve my performance.

The older Blade was insanely stiff/strong and slightly heavy. Great for big strong riders hammering short distances. The new Blade is more forgiving and although I have lost some weight (165 lbs.), I still consider myself a strong rider, so it is certainly a bike I would consider. The Saber is a great bike also, but I am not sure it would be much of an ‘upgrade’ from my Tachyon. Any added comfort from the carbon stays isn’t a huge plus for me. The P3 is really hot at the moment. It certainly looks super aero, and has some great technology and testing behind it. I like ti more than AL just from a maintenance/longevity standpoint. Not that a well designed and built AL bike is going to fail sooner than ti, or ‘wear out’, I think there is just less worry with a ti frame.

Other bikes that have caught my eye: Calfee Dragonfly, custom built, silly light, sexy, not super aero. Felt DA650, light, sexy, aero. Guru, similar to P3.

17

Why not? The old Blade was criticized for being too stiff because of it’s oversized aero tubing. The curved the seat stays and pared down the top tube for more vertical compliance, but it still looks pretty stiff to me laterally.

18

now that I’ve seen the picture of the '04, I’ll retract my comments about it being incremental. this is a pretty big deviation. And given the old blade, I’d consider that a good thing.

I would question aero data from anyone, but I would find it highly suspicious from people claiming aero without any data to back it up. that assumes that you are interested in either bike for aero reasons. i bought a P2k based on the aero factor, but now that I have it, I feel that being able to ride steeply is more important. fortunately the P2k has both.

If you want the blade, get it, but if you’re looking for aero, caveat emptor.

20

Cham, you are assuming that Litespeed uses a simple tube shape. If that were the case then your assumption would likely prove correct. In reality, though, their tube shapes are very complex, especially around the bb area in order to enhance stiffness. I expect this is the case on the new bikes as well. I would still expect the Blade to be one of the stiffer bikes, but the new one should prove far more vertically compliant than the lead-sled Blade of the last few years.

21

Litespeed is almost saddistic in the way they bend tubes, and use little bitty shape changes to enhance stiffness. Try the litespeed review at www.bikesportmichigan.com

22

From the photo, the Blade 04 is different than the Blades that Cameron Brown has been riding in the past. completely different tubes. Past ones had more of a lens shaped cross section of the tubes. The new one seems to have a teardrop shape section

The 04 Blade looks more like a Cervelo P2K copy than a P3 competitor. I do like the Blade top tube though. It seems from the photo, that the “aero” seat and down tubes have a semi-circular front edge rather than an eliptical front edge.

I still lust for a P3, but hope to order a P2K very soon.

TriDork