Agreed
In particular I think she probably did more to influence the sexual mores of young women than anyone since the sexual revolution of the '60s.
Also, and maybe a parallel, is where the center of the Music World has moved
Dylan wanted to write and perform music, so he moved from Minnesota to Greenwich Village
Joni Mitchell moved from Canada to Laurel Canyon
Madonna came from Detroit to The East Village (which was a burned out shell compared to Dylan’s time, BTW)
Taylor Swift moved from Bucks County, PA, to Nashville
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Taylor mostly isn’t pushing any boundaries musically, aside from the crossover from country to pop. Her music is fine, even good, but it’s straightforward pop stuff both in terms of lyric and musicality. Her image is entirely vanilla mass appeal, which again is fine. She’s enormously popular. I’m not sure how much impact she has culturally, because she’s just a reflection of existing vanilla cultural tastes.
Madonna was a different type of artist, for various reasons.
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The only thing I can say about TSwift is that she seems to write music that really speaks to young (mostly white) girls.
I’d say she’s more comparable to Bruce Springsteen than Madonna. ie A big, prolific entertainer with mass appeal who puts on good concerts and writes a lot of “meaningful” music to a demographic that maybe doesn’t have a lot of competition in that regard.
Yes, old country does this as well as a lot of rap music, but not typically pop rock music, IMO.
I’m gonna have to disagree with you there
I have this dream my daughter-in-law kills me for the money
She thinks I left them in the will
The family gathers 'round and reads it and then someone screams out
“She’s laughing up at us from Hell”
Not quite pop stuff, if you ask me, even if you DO hear it in ShopRite
I’ve heard every recording (both the original releases and “Taylor’s Versions”) start to finish multiple times, two or three loops in a session, and her lyrics are very deep, and complex - other than the singles, they are not “hook-y” at all
Some are little 3-4 minute musical “riddles” - what does that mean? Who is she talking about? I posted lyrics to “Tortured Poets Society” When it came out, my daughter texted me “Taylor swift name-checked Patti smith!!!” Hopefully, swifties took that and looked further into Dylan Thomas and Chelsea Hotel
Lyrically, musically, and due to the INSANE us of AutoTune, “midnight Rain” is just fucking creepy, but in an awesome way - like Edgar Allen Poe
It’s not just about tickets sold or what their prices are. People are spending thousands to travel to one of her concerts. Flights, hotels, meals, merch, etc. All things are stimulating the local economies.
Sure.
Madonna’s fans probably did all that too. My point was just that if we wanted to quantify economic net worth impact it should adjust for the different time periods. And someone pointed out length of career too, as swift is earlier in hers, and Madonna is done, maybe.
Taylor is a great songwriter, that is undeniable.
What did you think I’d say to that?
Does a scorpion sting when fighting back?
They strike to kill and you know I will
You know I will
What do you sing on your drive home?
Do you see my face in the neighbor’s lawn?
Does she smile?
Or does she mouth, “Fuck you forever”?Every time you call me crazy
I get more crazy
What about that?
And when you say I seem angry
I get more angryAnd there’s nothin’ like a mad woman
What a shame she went mad
No one likes a mad woman
You made her like that
And you’ll poke that bear ‘til her claws come out
And you find something to wrap your noose around
And there’s nothin’ like a mad womanNow I breathe flames each time I talk
My cannons all firin’ at your yacht
They say, “Move on”, but you know, I won’t
And women like hunting witches, too
Doing your dirtiest work for you
It’s obvious that wanting me dead
Has really brought you two togetherEvery time you call me crazy
I get more crazy
What about that?
And when you say I seem angry
I get more angryAnd there’s nothin’ like a mad woman
What a shame she went mad
No one likes a mad woman
You made her like that
And you’ll poke that bear ‘til her claws come out
And you find something to wrap your noose around
And there’s nothin’ like a mad womanI’m takin’ my time
Takin’ my time
‘Cause you took everything from me
Watchin’ you climb
Watchin’ you climb
Over people like me
The master of spin
Has a couple side flings
Good wives always know
She should be mad
Should be scathing like meBut no one likes a mad woman
What a shame she went mad
You made her like that
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If Madonna showed up to the Super Bowl, how many times would the camera pan to her vs Taylor Swift?
I’m young enough to not fully understand the impact Madonna had. I will admit that. I’m sure it was large and I don’t want to take anything away from her. But I think some of you are not understanding or appreciating the impact Taylor has had. Especially over the last few years. Even before the Era’s tour and dating Travis Kelce.
To me, they are different artists. Madonna pushed boundaries. Taylor shares her n=1 experiences that millions relate to. Nothing wrong with either and both will be icons for years down the road.
This could morph into the Caitlin Clark “trailblazer” argument quite easily.
They are both trailblazers but in different ways. Madonna more so for artistic reasons, Taylor more so for industry reasons. Impact on culture, I have to give the edge to the artist but as noted previously, Taylor’s trajectory has been rising steadily since her teenage years.
Again, this is conflating popularity with cultural impact. We live in a much different era of social media and celebrity than we used to.
Madonna is the biggest selling female artist of all time, globally (yes, people outside the US cared about Madonna). Swift is a few spots back on the list.
Madonna was the biggest selling female artist of the year 11 years in a row.
Both are/were immensely popular, and I suspect it’s younger people who don’t have perspective on how huge Madonna was, not older people who have been alive through the careers of both women lacking perspective on Swift.
Fuck off. You have no idea what Brittany Mahomes does for the KC community
This is probably true. Please enlighten us
FWIW, the Kelce’s are from Cleveland heights, which - besides being outside of Cleveland - is also not far from Akron; home of another badass woman of music, Chrissie hynde
Good point. Imagine how much bigger Madonna could have been with the internet, social media, Spotify, etc.
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We had social media - they were fanzines
The internet was mailing lists & PO Boxes
Spotify at the time was sending tapes around
My niece flew to Switzerland since it came out to the same price as here. Plus Switzerland.
I think it goes both ways. I will agree with you that the younger generation doesn’t fully understand the impact Madonna has had. But I would say the same for the older generation and Taylor.
Madonna, easily.
She brought a lot more adults and men.
Most of the Swift adult fans I know of grew up with her.
And Swift plays it too safe. Madge hasn’t exactly been known for that.
How has Taylor affected popular culture beyond being unmatched in sales and revenue?