ST,
I am getting back into Tri after a 6 yr break (no i was not in prison)
Been riding a road bike 200 miles per week the last 2 yrs
Am now on a large (56) specialized transition. I have 3 rides on it.
I get pain in my right big toe, and i get pain in my right glute–deep and low
I have my cleats (look keo) all the way back on my shoes, does anyone recommend moving them forward when you go from a road to tri position?
my saddle nose is at BB centerline, and certainly much more fwd (7-8cm) than on my road bike. i don’t feel bad (low or stretched) to the bars.
after a few more paydays I will hit a shop for a fitting, but wondered if there are general suggestions that might help with the pain–especially the glute–when it hurts i find myself wanting to pull on the extensions to lift myself up and back off the saddle–so am wondering if i should go up and back (but i am already as high up as i think i should go without hip rocking–ie my heel just touches the pedal with my foot out and crankarm down along the seat tube axis)
here are pics: http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss82/dmojim/tri%20position/IMG_5967.jpg http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss82/dmojim/tri%20position/IMG_5966.jpg
I know you’re an experienced rider from Serotta, Weigh Weenies etc. Without some sort of photos, video etc, it’s not really possible to give specific advice. One man’s “right” is another’s “wrong” from descriptions only.
I will say as a roadie that switched to TT specific riding last year, the muscle groups are very different in the aero position. I spent over a year messing with my position, getting my hamstrings used to the new position etc. I do run my cleats as far forward as I can (also Keo’s). The whole KOPS thing doesn’t apply at all for the aero position.
Jim, I’m not sure about that cleat thing. I have heard it recommended to move the cleat back (toe forward on pedal) for triathlon/TT so at this point I’d leave it.
Is your big toe pain from it going to sleep? That would probably be circulation. I would have you consider your shoe fit, but you are probably using the same shoes on your road bike and not experiencing this…yes? It could also be nerve pressure somewhere other than on the toe.
One thing to consider is that your seat is likely too high. The heel on the pedal thing is probably not the best way to set the seat height. Is the distance from the center of the pedal spindle to the center of the seat any further than that same measurement on your road bike? My guess is that it might be. Try getting a tape measure and replicating that distance from your road bike to your tri bike.
That being said, I am not really sure how a high seat would cause toe and glute discomfort. In regard to the toe, perhaps a high seat could have you pushing your foot downward into the toe of the shoe.
If your hip angle is tighter on the tri bike than your road bike then it’s normal to feel it in the glutes. You could be feeling an aching or burning sensation due to lactic acid. That should go away with conditioning.
it would be helpful to have a side view shot of you on this bike pedalling with the close foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke (not 6 o’clock, but full extension).
Read over all Slowman’s bike fit articles. I did that many years ago when there wasn’t even as much info posted as now and set myself up on my then brand new Cervelo P2K. I rode a few seasons before finally going for a FIST fit. I was told by the FIST fitter that my self fit was “bang on” and the only recommendation made was for a 1 cm shorter stem (guess they had to tell/sell me something while I was there.
The articles are very good. Read them over several times to really understand them. It’s quite possible to apply this info and do a good self fit.
thanks for the replies
the toe pain is pain, not sleep-like, and i can ride through it no problem
the glute pain is also pain, it is not where i contact the saddle
that may be just being out of aero for so long i need to adapt
rode yesterday for an hour, averaged 21mph, with some 25-29 pulls, i’d say 18 into the strong head wind etc
felt the glute pain after 6-7 miles, toward the end i was no longer wanting to ride.
this is different pain than say, the way my neck hurts because i’m not used to the aero position.
I will double check my saddle height and i have been reading the ST articles on fit
I’ll see if i can get someone to snap a pic of me
thanks for the replies
the toe pain is pain, not sleep-like, and i can ride through it no problem
the glute pain is also pain, it is not where i contact the saddle
that may be just being out of aero for so long i need to adapt
rode yesterday for an hour, averaged 21mph, with some 25-29 pulls, i’d say 18 into the strong head wind etc
felt the glute pain after 6-7 miles, toward the end i was no longer wanting to ride.
this is different pain than say, the way my neck hurts because i’m not used to the aero position.
I will double check my saddle height and i have been reading the ST articles on fit
I’ll see if i can get someone to snap a pic of me
jim
Hmmm… Another possibility is a bulging disc placing pressure on the spinal nerve when in this position (likely due to a tighter hip angle than on you other bike(s)). That can cause pain anywhere from the low back down to the extremities.
Is the pain in the glute on the same side as the pain in the toe?
Looking at your hip angle, I would say it is pretty compressed and will take some time to adapt. I recently tried a little more rearward seat position that stretches my arms a bit more and drops my shoulders with the result being a more acute than Fist-approved hip angle. Initially it was uncomfortable, but over the weeks I adapted until it was not a problem. You have a very flat back and aggressive starting position so it is going to take some time to adapt. I would just ride easy and not do intervals or go really hard until you feel better.
Also, if you are right at even with the bottom bracket you could probably push the saddle forward a bit at a time and try that out.
Don’t go pay a bunch of money for a fit. Your position is fine and just needs some refinement until you are adapted.
Chad
is there some benchmark or general idea of how far forward you can move the saddle relative to BB?
I feel it now more in the fornt of my thigh when i ride harder, relative to when i push hard on my road bike
i have not really given myself much of an “Adaption phase” you are spot-on there
5cm forward is the max allowable by USAT. I prefer about 3cm forward with my present saddle. How far forward you goes can depend on what part of the saddle you use. The tri position necessitates you rotate forward so sometimes the nose of the saddle is more comfortable in that case.
Jim, your position looks fast to me! I don’t think the seat is too high but my tastes run high…others might say it’s a bit high. And if you lowered it half an inch you might notice a difference in your discomfort because you’d be giving more slack to the muscles up the back side of the body.
But I think if you train this position for a while you might find it works out.
You should consider moving your seat foward to the legal limit (as CDW said, 5cm in front of the BB). This will decrease your hip angle while keeping your back in the same place. In conjunction with this you might find you want to move the bars forward also…so see about pulling an old stem or two from your used parts bin (or a friend’s) and play with that after moving the seat forward.
You WILL feel this forward position, initially, more in the lower quads but you will get used to it quickly. I want to stress that relative to road riding this is a higher RPM riding style. You won’t mash at 80rpms, you will want 95-100rpms.
Don’t I remember seeing some spacer above the stem? You can also raise the stem if needed to decrease the hip angle. You might find that you can get down there again, but need time to adapt and sneak up on that lower position.
Thanks–I can’t really imagine being a full inch closer–but i do ride full on this saddle more than on the front half–not even sure i like this saddle–been too focused on the glute pain. I’ll try to go slowly forward a a 1/2 cm or so at a time
and yes, there is 2.5 cm of spacers above the stem, and i am using the +8 insert, so can certainly bring the bars up–so i will try that first as i asssume it will open me up and put less of a stretch on my glute.
thanks very much for the replies
jim
Front view? Most important view of a bike fit yet people always talk about side view.
There are more adjustments on one foot then almost all the other adjustments combined.
Knee over tow alignment tells a lot.
How many pedal strokes in an ironman? How many connections to the pedals?
You can stand up or slide forward or back on the saddle – you can move your hands on the bars but you feet are locked in going up and down – how many times?
In other words get the feet wrong and you are wrong about 26 to 28,000 times in one iron man – but that is just for one leg – double it for the real number. I assume you also train so maybe this misalignment hits a million strokes over a short period of time.
thanks swifty–apologize for the ignorance, have been doing decent road mileage for a few years wiht no issues in any joint, but i am not understanding the front view of my foot over pedal? do you mean the cranks’ q factor or whatever, I can vary my knee position (ie knee toward the top tube) etc, and my cleats have some float, so i don’t understand what i’d be locked into unless you are saying i’d need to position my feet closer or farther out from the cranks?
anyway, i don’t have the flash card at work today and won’t be back until next week so no way for me to get a front shot for awhile
thanks
jim
