Baptism debate? What to do?

The Coffee Shop
1

So here’s the story…I am the very happy father of a 12 week old beautiful little girl. My wife and I are both atheists (I saw a shirt or bumpersticker somewhere that said “Born-again Skeptic”, I like that one). My wife’s maternal grandparents are devout catholics. We have never had the religion discussion with them, but I think it’s fairly obvious that we are not religious people (we were married by the State Supreme Court Justice in a hotel, not one mention of God or a prayer of any kind and we had an open bar DURING the ceremony).

So as I had expected the question has come up regarding when the baptism of our daughter will be. My wife’s aunt, who is well aware of our atheism, as is the rest of the family, politely told them “I don’t think there is going to be a baptism, that’s just not what they believe in.” Well that didn’t settle very well with them and now the family is worried that this will be a major cause of concern for the grandparents. Apparently the comment from the grandfather was something to the effect of “Well, I just don’t know how you could not baptize that little girl.” My mother-in-law’s plan to solve this is to tell the grandparents that she “baptized” our daughter. Apparently there is some catholic baptismal loophole that I was unaware of and in “emergency” situations any baptized catholic can baptize a person just before they die to “save their soul”? I don’t know, not a catholic, had never heard of it before.

On one hand, it seems like an easy way to keep the peace, if they buy it, that is. On the other hand I’m not a big fan of lying, it seems like it only creates more trouble than it’s worth in the end. Not to mention the fact that this just slaps us in the face. It’s like we have to, in a sense compromise our values just to placate the grandparents. I like my wife’s grandparents, get along with them very well and enjoy being around them. I don’t want to be the “cause” of a family uproar.

If you were in our situation what would you do?

2

Apparently there is some catholic baptismal loophole that I was unaware of and in “emergency” situations any baptized catholic can baptize a person just before they die to “save their soul”?

I’ve heard of no such thing…

3

Do the Baptism for your family and the faint chance there is a God that requires water immersion before entry into heaven :wink: It take a big man to put aside his own beliefs and sacrafice for his family put you better get use to it since having a family is all about sacrafice. And besides you get a party after the bath!

4

In addition, being atheists, you won’t be able to have the child baptized as a Catholic. One of the promises you make during the ceremony is that you will raise the child as a Catholic.

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If you were in our situation what would you do?

I will be in your exact situation soon enough and I’ll tell you exactly what I’m going to do: My children will never be baptized to make other people happy. Ever.

What allows these doddering emotionalists a dominant space in your head is fear of their disapproval. Drop fear of disapproval and all stress is gone. It’s your life, not theirs. You live your life, they should live theirs. And you know what? They want to, they’re happier when they are living their own lives and letting you live theirs, because then you can be a happy family all huggy and kissy because you aren’t sweating pointless things.

This is exactly what happened when I decided to move in with my fiancee before we were married. It was stupid to waste money on separate apartments while we were both poor college kids. So we move in together… the religious portion of my family (the largest portion) has a nuclear explosion. That went through its course, then my wedding had a female officiant and no mention of god or Jesus. I heard absolutely no mumblings about it at all, because I had already asserted my independence and now it’s pretty much a moot point (as far as I know).

I am an atheist.
They are not.

I have no interest in pulling them away from their religion.
(So far) They have no interest in trying to get me back into the flock.

So we all get along really really well now. It’s groovy.

So that’s my advice; Assert your independence, encourage your wife to do the same. Make it clear that you are an adult to be respected and do not bend to make others happy if they try to make you feel guilty.

It’s not that you think baptism will make your baby melt or turn into a Jesus freak, it’s that there is absolutely no logical, sane, and/or adult reason for you to want to baptize your child in a church because you do not believe in that stuff.
Believing in that stuff would constitute a “logical, sane, and/or adult” rationale.
Appeasing others does not constitute as a “logical, sane, and/or adult” rationale.

Past that, they are going to know it is nothing but a superficial attempt at appeasement on your part anyway, so it will just be a big waste of time and a big drama festival. Save yourself the headache and stake your independence; it’s the American Way!

6

So basically, in order to appease the g-parents we would have to create this web of lies, that just wouldn’t be worth it in the end.

So maybe the easiest solution is to say that we are not Catholic and leave it at that. Since most (maybe I’m wrong here) other christian faiths perform their baptisms when the person is old enough to say that they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, at least that’s how it worked when I was baptized at age 9 in the Baptist church.

7

Funny you should mention it, there really wasn’t a big stink, at least not that I knew of, when my wife and I moved in together in college. We lived together for almost 5 years before getting married and I have never noticed one ounce of bitterness or concern. We did sleep in separate beds when we went to their cabin however.

Another interesting note, every single one of their daughters have been divorced.

8

This would be a lot trickier if they were Jewish and we had a boy.

9

Baptism is one of two sacraments that can be done by a lay person. If the wife’s grandparents ever babysit, and have access to water, have the proper motivation and use the correct ceremony, it could be done and no one would be the wiser. By proper motivation, what is meant is something more than an initiation into a club, but the washing away of original sin. In other words, the grandparents are truly concerned with saving the baby’s soul, not just “making it Catholic.”

10

Baptism is for believers. When your child is old enough to make a decision she can do it then. Baptism is not a ticket to heaven. It is a symbolic ritual of one’s belief in Christ and His resurrection. So as far as God is concerned you’re off the hook in the baptism department. But I imagine He won’t let you off the hook if you raise your child as an atheist.

"It’s like we have to, in a sense compromise our values just to placate the grandparents. " And just to clarify, nonbelief is not a value. It’s just a choice to not believe.

Normally I don’t enter into the political or religious debates, but I have a soft spot for kids and this situation saddens me. Let the flaming begin.

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When my child is old enough to make those decisions, that is exactly what she will do. If she chooses to go to church, I will take her there myself. I’ll even sit through the mass/service with her is she is not yet old enough to do it by herself. Unless of course it is race morning, then she’s on her own :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m not sure what about this situation would sadden you. As you have stated, this is something for BELIEVERS, if she becomes a believer, so be it. I do not plan to raise her as anything but her own person, with her own beliefs and VALUES.

13

“Baptism is for believers”

Baptism in the Catholic Church isn’t wholly about belief. Babies are considered to have habitual belief for the purposes of baptism, that is, they have the belief of their parents until they are old enough to decide on their own… It is a washing away of original sin. As in many other churches, baptisim is a means by which we are incorporated into the church and made members of Christ.

If you truly don’t believe in God, and don’t intend to raise your child as a Christian, then you shouldn’t baptize them. For one thing, you will probably be asked to vow that you will raise them in the church. Secondly, if the child grows up and decides to believe, there is no reason they can’t be baptized later. Your wives grandparents are certainly concerned for the babies soul, since the Catholic Church teaches that an unbaptized infant (or any other person for that matter) who dies is “perpetually excluded from the vision of God.”

If you don’t believe what they believe, you have to find a way to make them understand that. It may be hard, but such is life. Faking it really shouldn’t be an option.

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My mother baptized my niece. My sister and her husband are not religious and didn’t want a hypocritical ceremony, so Gramma did it one evening when she was over babysitting and everyone was happy.

15

I’ve had the fortune or misfortune of trying to do it both ways.

My wife and I are not religious as well.

We started taking care of my wife’s niece at around the age of 3 and later ended up adoppting her. Prior to us both of her grandmothers were fairly devote catholics and raised her as such. My mother in-law pretty much did all of the “church” stuff for her. Taking her to church and all that that goes along with the religion. Thru this whole process, she is now almost 14, we pretty much stayed out of the way and “supported” her to a point.

The only sticker here is that we in no way agreed to any of the “Conditions”. I would find that hypocritical, and even found that someone else promising to do so for a child they weren’t raising a bit so…but I digress. Any baptism, confirmation etc etc was done and “sworn to” by someone else. The only thing that we have “clashed” on is praying over meals. I start eating as she’s praying…

We now have a 10 month old that the mother inlaw is trying to get “into the church” and we are taking the approach of “it aint gonna happen”. With the first child we came in part way and otehrs had already participated in the raising of the child. With this one only two people will be taking responsibilty for these types of desicions and it will be my wife and I, unless something goes horribly wrong.

So far this has caused only minor problems. I have learned that you do have to stand your ground and live life they way you see fit, despite any of the families grumbling.

~Matt

16

Dan,

I appreciate your openness to this question and I appreciate your wanting to do the right thing.

Sacraments are given by God to the Church. You’ve said – in so many words – that you’re outside of the Church. So, I would recommend that you don’t baptize your children. In the Old Testament God gave the sacrament of circumcision to the Israelites; to the Canaanites. Further, when people outside the Church administer sacraments it is offensive to God. In the Old Testament when an unrepentant Israel made sacrifices to God, God said that the aroma from those sacrifices were a foul stench to Him. Now, I’m not saying this to offend you (you’ve already said you don’t believe in God), and I hope that you and your family will one day join God’s Chruch and be baptized. Instead, I’m trying to equip you in your defense to your grandparents. Your grandparents should understand that you don’t believe in God, and if they do, then they should recognize that you would not want to offend your grandparents’ God by doing something that God specifically retained for His people alone.

17

What about Limbo?

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I’m in the middle of a similar situation. I’m catholic, my wife is baptist. Just this morning my mother asked when we were going to baptize my 4 month old son. I told her it would be a while. As a sign of respect to my wife’s traditions we were waiting until my son was 8 years old or so to baptize him. However, based on my traditions and the fact the my wife joins me for mass at a catholic church, my son will probably start sunday school and be baptised in the catholic church. Amazingly, my mom, the super-catholic (my wife’s term), thought this was a reasonable answer.

We had considered baptizing my son just to get my family off our back. We decided this was a big mistake, sending the wrong message to our son. I think my mom was most pleased in the fact that we had spent time making a good decision based on honesty and integrity, not weaseling around just to get the family off our back.

I had an opportunity to listen to a priest/theologian from the archdiocese discuss various teachings. He was asked about the baby limbo thing. His answer really struck me. It touched on many different areas including death bed confessions, having your life flash before your eyes, etc.

My recollection: basically, when you die and come before god, you will be asked if you want to spend eternity with god in paradise. Who could refuse, you ask. Well if you lived a life of sin and evil, and knew more about pain and hatred than love and compassion, upon reviewing your life you may very well choose to continue this after death. Then you go to hell.

An unbaptized infant, although marked with original sin, would not know hatred, bigotry and evil, having never experienced these things. This infant would then chose heaven. Because how could a merciful, compassionate god send a beautiful infant away.

I love that.

-Scott

19

Yea. Just the thought of a moyle with shaky hands is enough to make me convert.

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Specifically, reformed theology teaches that your are saved by belief in Jesus Christ. Christian faiths that predate the prtestant reformation do not have this featured prominently.

You won’t hear any talk of being born again amongst catholics, eastern orthodox, copts, or ethiopian christians. You might hear about adult conversion events, if it is in the heart of the bible belt you might hear aboutbeing born again but that is something they adapt from the protestants to try and get recruits.

21

My recollection: basically, when you die and come before god, you will be asked if you want to spend eternity with god in paradise. Who could refuse, you ask. Well if you lived a life of sin and evil, and knew more about pain and hatred than love and compassion, upon reviewing your life you may very well choose to continue this after death. Then you go to hell.

Interesting, but a little hard to reconcile with mainstream Christian teachings. And who said sin is always pain and hatred? Sometimes it’s promiscous sex and gambling and drinking/drugs and sleeping in and missing church…so I guess maybe some people would opt for continue with this, as long as your weren’t being burned in eternal hell-fire as well.

An unbaptized infant, although marked with original sin, would not know hatred, bigotry and evil, having never experienced these things. This infant would then chose heaven. Because how could a merciful, compassionate god send a beautiful infant away.

There are many ideas of what wold happen to an unbaptized infant… I kind of like what the Catholic catechism says about it: (CCC 1261)

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children, which caused him to say, ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them’ , allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism.