After reading the great articles on the zipp.com website i came to the conclusion that it is better to wait a coupple of years before switching to ceramic (bearings) balls for my DA hubs and my BB.
The articles have a good (enough for me) explanation on how critical it is to get the best result as the magic is not just ceramics, but the roundness of the balls, fitting and tolerances etc.
Although this being all new to me i feel this is not just some marketing bla, bla but good answers in getting the best performance.
Due to my decision in not switching to ceramic balls (for the moment at least) i was looking for lower grade of steel balls to improve the rolling of my hubs but despite many search attempts i haven’t been able to find them.
Does anybody has a link of where to get (online) these lower grade steel balls (3/16).
The DA’s use standard grade 25.
Also as important in getting good rolling wheel/hubs is the grease.
I’m kinda fascinated by the product called super web grease http://www.rocklube.com/products_detail_superweb.html
What appeals to me is that it sticks to where the balls needs is most and that’s in the groove where many other greases gets pushed out and there for reducing the drag while still getting as best lubrication for the hubs/balls.
Here’s what these guys have to say about it.
“Two things about this grease: if you take off a seal and turn the bearing, notice how it pulls itself pack into the rotating balls. This is the “webbing” action of the grease where it is sticky and adheres to the area where it needs to work; in the ball path. Many other greases get pushed out of the way and if you look inside the bearing, you will notice it sitting next to the ball path as more and more of the grease gets pushed out of the critical area.”
in my opinion, the difference between super high-quality steel and ceramic ball bearings at bicycle component RPMs is trivial or at least, is in no way worth the incredible cost difference between the two. and one of the main advantages of ceramic bearings are their remarkable tolerance to heat (usually but not always generated by very high RPMs), so, unless you can hit 500 mph, or are biking on Mercury, it is not that critical.
that said, there are some design flaws in current bike components, most notably the arrangements of some common ‘external bearing’ BBs. yes, many of these are stiff as hell, but a lot of these designs also have an enormous amount of rotating friction compared to that of previous ‘internal bearing’ BBs. that is why i run an internal bearing BB on my race bike.
but because of this design flaw, in the BB specifically ceramic bearings may be a bit superior, not because of the ceramic balls per se, but because the company also completely re-designed the arrangement of the balls, bearings, and spindle, and better design can make this type of BB run a lot smoother, and this makes vastly more difference than the type of balls in the bearings.
i do not know if getting a higher grade of steel ball than dura ace is that important. i think these things make a lot more difference on parts that operate at thousands of RPMs (like jet engines) than they do on a bike. i have no experience with the grease you write about. i don’t think having the ‘webbing action’ is that important unless you expect a lot of moisture getting in to the bearings.
Lets face it the bicycle will not be the subject for revolution again as it has been very good out developed. In stead there will be small if not very small evolutions or innovations is perhaps the best description.
One of these innovations/evolutions is ceramic bearings.
I agree that the gain is minimal, but no matter how one looks at it is better to fit rounder balls than the standard ones and probably less expensive than the ceramic ones.
I’m not negative about the upgrade BB from ceramicspeed, token and even enduro, but there is just so little reviews and riders experiences that for the moment i wait and see how durable they are and if there really is a performance gain.
I believe that with a lower grade steel balls i get the best of both worlds (price/performance) when i can combine lower grade steel balls and a better (less drag) grease, but not the utmost best performance as this is really going to be a attack on one’s wallet.
I feel that the manufacturers don’t make sloppy designs, but real value for money, however some people just want to go a little bit further and finding some improvements that makes them go faster although the gain is marginal. It’s up to the owner if it’s worth or not.
Lets face it the bicycle will not be the subject for revolution again as it has been very good out developed.
i think you may surprised. revolutions may yet come, and there are many places where improvements are possible.
I believe that with a lower grade steel balls i get the best of both worlds (price/performance) when i can combine lower grade steel balls and a better (less drag) grease,
but i think the grease you mentioned might stick to the ball bearings better, but actually it might be higher in drag.
I feel that the manufacturers don’t make sloppy designs,
no, not ‘sloppy’ per se, but they do make ‘improved’ designs that are actually worse in performance than the previous generation (i.e., some of the externall BBs).
"i think you may surprised. revolutions may yet come, and there are many places where improvements are possible. "
That remarks is making me very curious
Let’s hear it what parts are being revolutionized.
“but i think the grease you mentioned might stick to the ball bearings better, but actually it might be higher in drag.”
I know, but would that indicate that a grease that’s being pushed out has the lowest drag …
I think you allways have to find a compromise and with bicyling it’s no diffirent.
The challenge is to find a compromise that works better than the one you had or was using.
Awww, come on guys, it’s so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Heeeey! It’s all ball bearings nowadays. Now you prepare that Fetzer valve with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads. And I’m gonna need 'bout ten quarts of anti-freeze, preferably Prestone. No, no make that Quaker State.
Actually, I don’t agree at all. The bearings in my race wheels needed to be replaced, so I replaced them with “hybrid” bearings for very little cost. Hybrids are ceramic balls in steel races. Normal steel bearings are maybe $5 a set, the very high quality hybrids I used were $15 a set.
Ceramic balls with ceramic races are more expensive, but as far as I know only the very high end Zipps actually use them - and they can be had for much cheaper than Zipp sells them for, depending on the size.
I know that for a DT-Swiss 240s rear hub a “full” ceramic bearing can range from $60 to $120, depending on how the bearing is sealed.
And yes, there is a difference. The ride is noticeably smoother than new steel bearings, and you do go farther when coasting on a flat.
It is not so much the issue if switching to ceramics is useful or not (i could also ask if it is useful to get a 10 grams lighter bottle holder and what is the benefit on the road from that?).
The point is that ceramics are indeed a improvement although it is not a magic material.
Especially for people who ride not the most expensive wheels like zipp there will be a positive difference as simply the ceramic balls are several factors rounder and that’s basicly the secret behind the ceramic balls. Simply put they roll better as there roundness is better than regular balls or ball bearings.
It’s not without a reason that the people from zipp contacted a bearing manufacturer and having them made to there own specs and the result is clear. A very good rolling wheel, but at a price.
Coming back to ceramics. It is for the moment a good improvement that for many people make a difference, but not everybody will notice it. This does not mean that ceramics are no good or have no positive effects.
There are good ceramics and there are bad ceramics as with all things. Like others have said, you get what you pay for. A relatively low priced ceramic bearing is just as crappy as a low priced steel one.
I’m very pleased to see that company’s start specializing in cycling specific bearings as they require there own specs (see the zipp articles) and now the offer some improvements by selling hybrid bearings. I’m pretty sure that within time the full ceramics will become more available too and at lower prices and with cycling specific specs.
I think we as cycling community should appreciate that as doing specific cycling r&d is about the most costly of anything and with that in the back of my head things are relatively speaking ‘affordable’.
Yes, there is still a long way to go, but isn’t that with all things …
I have no doubt that within a few years more and more wheel sets will come standard with ceramics and then most of the comments will end like so many things have in the past
Like all things it is always a choice of the owner if he/she is willing to pay for something or not. Each to his/her own is my phrase.
