Aren't we really all hypocrites, after all?

Triathlon Forum
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**You’re saying there should be a line drawn between licit and illict drugs? **Yes, Tom, that’s exactly what I’m saying. And I’m saying there *is *a line drawn between the two.
**That does open the controversy over where that line belong, as you mentioned. **Well, yep. Just like there can be controversy over where the line should be between “prescription” and “non-prescription” drugs. If I think you should have to be under a doctor’s care and supervision to take morphine, am I a hypocrite if I self-medicate myself with asprin?

**FWIW, IMO in a perfect world we wouldn’t need legislation for substances like this, or, for that matter, what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom. but then again, it sure as heck ain’t a perfect world, is it? **Not since Adam ate the apple. But that’s another argument. . .

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I’m not sure vitus979, but we may be dangerously close to agreeing on something here.

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Unless you find female role models to be incredibly intoxicating, I believe you meant “heroin”.

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“I can’t even imagine dating a woman…”

Tom, trust me on this one. Take a basic wine appreciation course (usually just a one day seminar) and learn how to gourmet cook. You’ll never have a problem finding a woman again.

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Finding them is not a problem. I simply choose not to participate anymore. Way too many problems, and not all of them caused by me either.

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“Unless you find female role models to be incredibly intoxicating”

Don’t want them too intoxicated.

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The aspirin/morphine comparison doesn’t work. They’re totally different drugs, particularly in their potential for abuse. Now if they were both equally abusable, but aspirin had been around for centuries (or millenia) and was more socially acceptable while morphine was a newer introduction and arbitrarily outlawed, it would work.

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I’m not sure vitus979, but we may be dangerously close to agreeing on something here.

Then, WAIT! I changed my mind!

:wink:

I will say that we have the “all-or-nothing” personality in common- I suspect we share that with quite a few people on this board.

Did you see the Dianne Sawyer-Mel Gibson interview a few weeks ago? He’s telling her about his alcoholism, and explaining that he has an “addictive” personality. As he’s talking about it, I can feel my wife’s eyes boring into me. “That’s YOU!!!” she says.

I find that things I think are worth doing are worth doing all-out. If I don’t think they’re worth doing all-out, I tend to see no point in doing them at all. Very little middle-ground. Depending on what the situation is, that can be a very big blessing or a very big curse. It can be a tricky personality trait to manage.

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Well then, for better or worse, we are very much alike then.

I knew I liked you for a good reason… :slight_smile:

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I’m sorry, but I think the asprin/morphine comparison works dang near perfectly. Thought it was pretty clever of me to come up with it, too. :wink:

Yes, they differ tremendously in they’re potential for abuse. That’s mostly my point. You don’t think alcohol and crack differ in their potential for abuse? Look at it this way- do alcohol and crack differ in their potential for use?

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<Yes, they differ tremendously in they’re potential for abuse. That’s mostly my point. You don’t think alcohol and crack differ in their potential for abuse? Look at it this way- do alcohol and crack differ in their potential for use? >

I stick by my statement. I agree with you the line has been drawn, but it has been drawn based on what our society deems to be acceptable or unacceptable. Then you must ask yourself WHY a line has been drawn at all? What is the purpose of that line? Is it to protect us all from ourselves? Give me a break. Alcohol is shoved down our throats via ads every day on TV. On every sporting event. You don’t have to be an alcoholic to drive drunk, by the way.

If EPO was legal - I would NOT use it. If heroin (thanks for the English lesson John) was legal - I would NOT use it. Just as I choose not to jump off a building. It’s called “free will” based on hopefully intelligent decisions.

Aren’t we a funny scociety? We are hypocrites and we justify ourselves and explain it away by saying the thing is legal vs. illegal. A thin veil at best. If you really look at it.

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And if murder was legal, I still wouldn’t commit it. Congratulations to me.

Yes, the purpose of the line is to protect us all from ourselves. Just like every other law. It’s intended to either protect the individual from his own actions, or to protect society from the individuals actions, or both.

I’m not sure what you’re point about “free will” is. I will point out that people often confuse having free will with having the right to do what they want. Free will has nothing to do with rights- it has to do only with *ability. *You have the ability to do what you want- ride your bike, toke on a joint, rape the neighbor lady, whatever. You may or may not have the right, legally or morally, to do what you want.

Look at that- off-topic already!

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As a couple of others have mentioned, this is all strictly business and politics. Marijuana was criminalized not because of its affects as a drug, but because the cotton industry was having trouble competing with hemp as a cheaper, sturdier fabric and Dupont Industries was readying nylon for release as a textile. At the time that drugs were outlawed, the Attorney General was the nephew of the chairman of Dupont. They took advantage of the situation and appeased the remains of the failed prohibition movement by banning drugs that were, until then, sold over the counter and whose use was seen as a vice more than anything else.

Up until that point in American history, you could buy cocaine or opium at the apothecary’s. Marijuana was never available as such(at least, not in any documentation I have ever found).

Now, you have the Drug Warriors, hundreds of thousands of law enforcement, judicial, and penal system workers, and others whose lives are devoted to eradicating drugs. If drugs are decriminalized, all those people will be out of work. If pot is legalized, then it’s medicinal properties will become more widely known, and a lot of people will stop taking their Prozac and just take a hit or to off a joint when they feel edgy.

Speaking of which, why do we think that coming to work stoned makes you stupid and lazy, but coming to work on Prozac and Atavan is okay? Based on my observations, people on the latter are loopier than people who are stoned.

In case it isn’t obvious, I am in favor of legalizing pot. I am not in school anymore, so I don’t have a dealer. I own my house and don’t want to lose it, so I’m not a grower. And frankly, I just don’t have the time. But if you came over on a Saturday night with a bag of skunky green with purple hairs, I’m sure I could find some papers or an old bong around here somewhere.

I acknowledge that the “recreational” use of drugs is not for everyone. I have known people who overdo everything, from cigarettes to alcohol, to coffee, to cocaine. Even exercise, if you can believe such nonsense. But there has to be a certain concession to personal responsibility. Drug Warriors want to protect the children? Then why can my 15 year old nephew get Ecstasy in math class, but I don’t know anybody who has it(not that I’m interested)? If drugs are legalized, the international terror organizations who profit from them, such as the Taliban, North Korea, and the Reagan administration under GHW Bush, would not be able to wreak havoc throughout the world.

Will people abuse drugs, overdose on drugs, and ruin their lives because of drugs? Yes. But the option will be the people’s, the legal implications of drug use is removed, and the scumbags who profit from the illicit drug trade will be gone.

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Hey, I never said you weren’t clever… :wink:

“You don’t think alcohol and crack differ in their potential for abuse?”

I do, and that’s why I think there’s a very rational reason to keep it illegal. Pot is a whole different story, that was my point.

(Just for the record, I’ve tried pot, might do it again if the setting were right but not a huge fan. However, if think that’s its classifcation as a scheule I controlled substance is ridiculous compared to legal alcohol and tobacco)

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This thread is cool and all, but I want to hear more about your skateboarding days. I used to be a skate rat, and have the scars to prove it (chipped teeth, 18 stitches in my right knee, broken left wrist, and too many bruises, contusions and abrasions to name). Who sponsored you? Street or vert or both? Still skate?

I’ve been thinking about getting back on a board, mainly so my kid will think I’m cool when he gets older. I’m only 31, and still have some balance. I think I could do it, but I’d better do it soon or the years will start to catch up to me.

RP

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Freestyle and half pipe (now called vert ramp).

I rode for Pepsi and was also sponsored by Sims and Vans and also rode briefly for a place called Skateboard Systems. We did demos and competitions all over the midwest.

I broke my share of bones. About two years ago I took some kids from the bike shop to a skatepark and burned in from the top of a vert ramp while demonstarting how to drop in and broke a rib. Oops. Man, did it hurt to sneeze for a while after that.

Skating was good for me, it taught me about competition and how to deal with being nervous before an audience. It also taught me good balance and reflexes and how to interface with equipment well.

Ever since then I have had no issues skiing, snowboarding, surfing or even learning to fly an airplane. I took to it fairly well. I went skiing about a year ago in Banff after not skiing for years and years and was actually able to drop in the half-pipe at Lake Louise and get air out of the top- on skis. It was super cool. Of course, skis have come a long way since then too, I had new Salomon parabolics.

I don’t skate anymore but I ride my snowboard when possible and ski also. I’m pretty sick on skis, although I don’t get upside down any more.

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you have probably seen it but I saw the documentary Dogtown and Z-boys recently. It was very entertaining and informative. On another note, my 4 year old daughter came home from preschool the other day and announced she was marrying a boy in her class named Spencer. Turns out his name is Spencer Hawk. I met his dad Tony at the schools open house. I told my daughter that Spencer was O.K. by me and that I would be happy to join her on any playdates at Spencer/Tony’s house.

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I never saw Z-Boys. My buddies have been trying to get me to see it, but I’m not a big one for reliving the past. Too much to do now.

Tanoy Hawk? That’s huge. He’s five stars *****!

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We, as a society, have determined that some substances are so harmful/damaging/addictive/bad that they should be illegal. Their ill effects to the individual and to society as a whole far outweigh their benefits. We say that there is no way to use these substances responsibly, or at least that it is extraordinarily rare. There aren’t many social meth users, for example.

Other substances, in our judgement, can be and are used responsibly by millions of people, and they have significant benefits for those people. Additionally, the ill effects of these substances are often a result, not of their use, but of their abuse. So while there are a lot of alcoholics who have ruined their lives, they did so by abusing alcohol. And there are a lot more people who have used alcohol responsibly for their enjoyment.

There can be, I think, a legitimate argument about where the line between “licit” and “illicit” drugs should be. Maybe pot really is benign and should be legal. Maybe tobacco is the scourge of humanity and should be banned. That’s all debatable. But to argue that having any line at all is hypocritical is silly. Surely you’re not going to argue that, in the real world, it doesn’t make any difference if I go home and have a beer after work, or if I go home and take a hit off the crack pipe. Are you?

Maybe there should be a line drawn, but I think the line should be drawn somewhere other than where it is now. Living in Austin most of my years from 18 - 29, I know many, many intelligent people who have used marijuana, mushrooms, ecstasy, cocaine, and acid responsibly(if that is possible w/ an illegal substance) for their enjoyment. I happen to know two succesful attorneys and a couple of succesful business people who have smoked pot on a regular basis for years(all 4 are in their 40’s and 50’s). Just as in any situation(riding a bike, driving a car, hangliding, having unprotected sex, etc…) a certain amount of risk is assumed.

I’ve tried all of the above at some time in my life and never felt like I** absolutely ***had *to have more even though I had fun virtually every time. I do admit that I have never had an addictive personality, but off the top of my head I can think of about 8 or 9 college buddies who have tried some or all of the above and have never developed an addiction. Strangely enough, I’ve never smoked a cigarette or had a cup of coffee, though. Funny thing is, during the same period of experimentation I wouldn’t touch beef or pork http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/lachen/laughing-smiley-001.gif(still won’t).

I don’t know if things are different with drugs like heroin, crack, crystal meth, oxycontin, etc… I’ve never tried them - I hear they are super addictive like cigarettes. I just think adults should be able to make their own decisions when it comes to their bodies(sex, drugs, etc…)

An addition: I know ecstasy was used for years in psychotherapy before it was made illegal, and that the FDA approved a study fairly recently examining it’s uses in that area.

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There is no line…

A large number of drug and addiction medical experts were asked to rank these 18 legal and illegal drugs for 2 traits: (1) how easy is it to get hooked and (2) how hard is it to stop once you are hooked? The drugs examined were (in alphbetical order): alcohol, caffeine, cocaine, crack, crank, crystal meth, ecstasy, heroin, LSD, marijuana, mescaline, smoked meth, mushrooms, nicotene, pcp, quaaludes, seconal, and valium.

And the winner (among all 18 of these bad boys) was… Nicotene! (no. 1)

Also of note… Alcohol (ranked 8) and Caffeine (ranked 12).

(For comparison, Heroin was ranked 9.) Tobacco/Nicotene kills more people each year in the USA than ALL (so-called) illegal drugs, all murders, all suicides, all car accident deaths… ALL COMBINED!

Hope that convinces you that there is NO “line”…