A passenger arriving at London, Heathrow this morning on the Virgin red-eye from Washington was found to have 5 rounds of live ammunition in a coat. It’s a little disquieting that he went through security at Dulles, which was only last week decribed as being a it’s most alert, without them being detected by the x-ray machines, metal detectors etc.
He was a Sudanese male with a connecting flight out to Saudi, so possibly was not connected to A-Q. Or was he, Tom…
What was he going to do with five rounds of ammo? Throw them at somebody? I have no knowledge of how airport metal detectors work, but the cartridge is typically made of brass and that may not trip the detectors. If the bullet is unjacketed lead, that may not set off the detectors as well. Pre 9/11, I used to get through security with my Leatherman on my hip when I flew. And before we get too whipped up about firearms, what would you do if a terrorist had a 1 or 2 inch knife held to the throat of a 6 year old girl? Rush him? Sorry to say, but when you put yourself 35,000 feet up in an aluminium tube, you are sucker-bait, no matter what precautions are taken on the ground.
Brett
I was thinking about this the other day. Why not put an undercover armed FBI/CIA/ ex Navy SEAL etc. marksman on board every flight. We may already be doing it. The next terrorist who pulls out his boxcutter and starts any trouble, get his ass capped and after a round of applause, we all go back to enjoying the movie! The terrorists would have no way of knowing who the “special” passenger was or if they were even on a flight after a while. We would be using their own tactic. The mere threat of terror or in this case “terror prevention” would alter their normal way of doing things.
Thanks Brett, that’s a well considered argument for what line of action? Is it not possible that he could link up with an aquiantance who was carrying a plastic firearm? Do you consider the use of Sky Marshalls good or bad? Surely the possibility exists for them to be disarmed and the weapon to be used against them.
I do have knowledge of how airport metal detectors work and even a ceramic knife would appear show up on an x-ray as does brass, unjacketed lead etc. The point which should be considered is that these things should be detected and removed prior to boarding the aircraft, this then removes the possibility of your “6 year old with a 1 inch knife at her throat” scenario.
<<I was thinking about this the other day. Why not put an undercover armed FBI/CIA/ ex Navy SEAL etc. marksman on board every flight. We may already be doing it. The next terrorist who pulls out his boxcutter and starts any trouble, get his ass capped and after a round of applause, we all go back to enjoying the movie! The terrorists would have no way of knowing who the “special” passenger was or if they were even on a flight after a while. We would be using their own tactic. The mere threat of terror or in this case “terror prevention” would alter their normal way of doing things. >>
The issue is how many terrorists do you really have on board? Smart players will have “sleepers” who will role-play as hapless passenger and then try to turn the table back around. So, if something breaks out, you now have to “contain” an entire planeload of people until you get on the ground. Afterwards, it’s shake 'em down time for everybody, including the innocent. Ask anybody in CT/HRT and they’ll tell you, once the incident is in motion, it’s “loss minimalization” time. That is why you need to hit terrorists in their camps, their cells, their homes, Sword of Gideon style.
Brett
Anyone like to tell the class what happens in a pressurised aircraft fuselage when a firearm is discharged?
Oh, and the armed undercover guy idea has been in force since September 11th on international flights originating from the US.
agreed. But I think after the first idot takes one through the skull the pilot is instructed to high tail it to the nearest airport and " Mister I’ve got the gun and am prepared to use it" stations himself at the head of the plane between the passengers and pilots. Everyone is ordered to sit down and stay there until landing. Next guy(sleeper) up gets to join his friend in the “I’ve got an extra hole in my head club”
<<Is it not possible that he could link up with an aquiantance who was carrying a plastic firearm? >>
I wasn’t aware that polymer technology had advanced to the point of plastics being able to reliably contain the chamber pressure developed during the firing of a firearm. Do they have working models? How is second shot reliability? Is the barrel sleaved? Is it broach cut or button cut?
<<Do you consider the use of Sky Marshalls good or bad? Surely the possibility exists for them to be disarmed and the weapon to be used against them.>>
I doubt there is a clear-cut answer either way.
<<The point which should be considered is that these things should be detected and removed prior to boarding the aircraft, this then removes the possibility of your “6 year old with a 1 inch knife at her throat” scenario. >>
You are correct, these items should be removed prior to boarding, but people shouldn’t be trying to kill each other over differing religious beleifs either. Security is terribly inconvenient and causes long waits at the airport and other PITA’s (Pain In The Ass) for those of us innocent people who don’t give a flying leap about who the person next to me prays to at night. That is part of the terrorist game, however. Unless we all subject ourselves to draconian levels of security, something is going to slip through. A common ballpoint pen can inflict a lot of damage if not death when properly placed.
I hope you didn’t take my initial comment regarding this individual throwing the bullets at somebody as an insult to you posting that info. I just thought it was humorous that somebody would be walking around with a pocket full of rounds but no means to use them (apparently).
Brett
Brett, Glock have been making sidearms out of plastic for over 10 years now, and as any of our military members can tell you that are extremely highly regarded instruments, as one would expect from the Swiss.
I wasn’t too sure about the tone of your initial post but I am now
.
Let’s hope the most any of us have to worry about when flying is getting our bikes home safely! But I guess that’s another thread?
<<Brett, Glock have been making sidearms out of plastic for over 10 years now, and as any of our military members can tell you that are extremely highly regarded instruments, as one would expect from the Swiss>>
The Glock 19 that I own (pre-ban 9mm/15 round) has a polymer “lower.” The slide, barrell, mainspring, firing pin, etc. are teflon coated metals. There are a lot of challenges to manufacturing the breach of a firearm. If they are truly producing all plastic pistols, that’s intense.
Brett
I’m a little rusty on this, but I know that a company was making one several years ago(not a Glock, I think it was Israeli-made) that was all plastic and ceramic, and was specifically made to defeat airport metal detectors(although, you would wonder why anyone would design such a thing). I think that the barrel and spring were the only metal pieces. It sold for around $2500, and the time-frame was early 90’s. This was when they first started making ceramic knives and other goodies so that a man could defend himself any time, any place, even on a plane.
Things sure have changed.
<<I’m a little rusty on this, but I know that a company was making one several years ago(not a Glock, I think it was Israeli-made) that was all plastic and ceramic, and was specifically made to defeat airport metal detectors(although, you would wonder why anyone would design such a thing). >>
Especially the Israeli’s. I could see the old USSR or even our own CIA.
Oh, and Julian: You are correct, compromising the hull of a pressurized aircraft is bad news. I do know that Federal (a U.S. based ammunition company) developed a ceramic frangible bullet in the early '90’s. Good stopping power, but there were concerns that it would find it’s way into the “wrong” hands because the projectile disintegrated so completly that getting a ballistics match would be impossible. The reason I know this is because of friends I have in law enforcement who helped test and evaluate said round. Was I at the range that day? Oh heck yeah!
Brett
I think the next idiot who pulls out a box cutter and trys to get in the cockpit is going to have about 200 passengers kicking the snot out of him. MHO.
“You are correct, compromising the hull of a pressurized aircraft is bad news.”
Have you seen the TV show on TLC (I think) called “Myth Busters?” A couple of nights ago, they recreated the scenario of a bullet through the skin and window of an aircraft hull. What they did was to get an old DC-9 fuselage, seal it up, and pump air into it to pressurize it to simulate a 32,000 ft. altitude differential. Firing one bullet through the fuselage or window caused only slow depressurization, not explosive decompression. Then they used det cord and a shaped charge to blow out a window (test dummy in the window seat got his arm sucked out), and the whole side of the plane (test dummy -strapped in- stayed in plane, and stryofoam peanuts in the aisle were only sucked out in the general vicinity of the hole. Remember the Hawaii Airlines plane that lost half of the upper fuselage years ago? Only one person, a flight attendant standing in the aisle was killed. Their conclusion–Hollywood scenario is not going to happen in real life.
<<Have you seen the TV show on TLC (I think) called “Myth Busters?” A couple of nights ago, they recreated the scenario of a bullet through the skin and window of an aircraft hull. What they did was to get an old DC-9 fuselage, seal it up, and pump air into it to pressurize it to simulate a 32,000 ft. altitude differential. >>
I didn’t see that episode, but I do enjoy watching “Mythbusters.” I look like the bald guy (not Adam).
Hollywood exagerating? Never…
Brett