If so I am curious as to what you believe the extent of the evidence is for the earth being billions of years old.
clearly the answer to your question is “limited”. If there were that much evidence that the earth were billions of years old and they believed it, it is unlikely they would be young earth creationists.
It is not a belief system I can even begin to get my head around.
If there are any I’d be more interested to know what they thought of the God Delusion by Dawkins and whether they let their children read Philip Pullman or J K Rowling.
If there are any I’d be more interested to know what they thought of the God Delusion by Dawkins and whether they let their children read Philip Pullman or J K Rowling.
The answer to the question about J.K. Rowling is most definitely, “NO!” I can remember when the first Harry Potter book was published there was a HUGE outcry from Fundamentalist Christians about witchcraft and other moral problems with the book. It was quite a stir.
Bernie
a HUGE outcry from Fundamentalist Christians
This is where we need to decipher between a “HUGE outcry” and a “small, but loud group getting their undue share of attention”.
I also remember rumblings about SpondBob and the (What were thos ethings called that had the shapes on their head and one of them carried a purse) being “gay”. I don’t recall if religion played a role or not.
What bothers me about our society is that thje extreme of a group becomes the face of their more mainstream members just because they are willing to say outlandish things that the media can base a talking-head show around.
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I was once a YEC. Why? Because I let YEC websites/persons convince me that by not accepting a literal Genesis that I was essentially slandering the whole Bible (that guilt trip stuff works well!). I had a professionally biology degree from college, and had no scientific reason to doubt evolution … but I sure did repeat the ICR and AiG with fervor (right Ken?).
I e-mail Ken Miller (Finding Darwin’s God) quite a bit and he and talked about a few things (I’m not name-dropping or anything, I figured I am a Christian, He’s a Christian, I’m a bio teacher, He’s a bio teacher … let’s talk some science/religion, and was willing). Some he could answer, some he could not. For the “how does this all tie in?” questions, he directed me to John F. Haught.
It didn’t take long to realize that it’s probable/possible that the Adam/Eve, 7-day Creation, perfect Garden of Eden, Forbidden Fruit, talking serpent, etc is anaology to convey essential truths about the relatinkship between man and God. We are Created (means is secondary), We have the ability to have a special relationship w/ God, We have sinned putting distance between ourselves and God, and we need to repent … and all that leads to Christ. I spent far too long getting hung up on the details. It’s also possible that the 7-day creation story exists in its format to set up the Sabbath. God rested, not becuase He was tired, but to make the day Holy. Lots of ideas about why the format is the way it is.
I think Haught some very interesting ideas regarding God and, out of Love, allowing His Creation to autonomously become something distinct from the Creator … but I’m not whole hog on that. I do believe that when the Bible says we are created “in his image” it doesn’t mean morphology … but the ability to know right from wrong, to love, to choose, etc.
Dick Fisher also has some interesting ideas about BOTH evolution and a SuperNatural Creation of Adam (starting the Adamaic/Isreal/lineage to Christ people). In his articles he does show what could be interpreted as evidence (from Genesis) that there were “other people” there when Adam/Eve were there and that Cain was “scared” of them. Also, Adam/Eve/Cain/Abel were farmers and ranchers, and the idea is they would have learned that from surrounding cultures. It’s interesting enough to think about from time to time.
I could go on, you guys know how I am.
**This is where we need to decipher between a “HUGE outcry” and a “small, but loud group getting their undue share of attention”. **
Okay, I’ll conceded that. To me, “HUGE outcry” was meant that it was talked about for a couple of days on the radio news programs, there were op/eds about it, and newspaper stories. I guess that I called it huge from the perspective that it was a small, issue-oriented group that got their “undue share of attention.” Thanks for setting me straight!
What were thos ethings called that had the shapes on their head and one of them carried a purse) being “gay”. I don’t recall if religion played a role or not.
Those would be the Teletubbies, Tinkie-Winkie being the Teletubbie in question (the purple one with the upside down triangle on his head who carries a purse). And, yes, it is my opinion that Tinkie Winkie is as queer as a 3 dollar bill. Religion played a role insofar as Pat Robertson was the one who was screaming about it.
Bernie
Thanks for setting me straight!
Be sure to return the favor.
Teletubbies
My kids had no choice but to NOT be into the Teletubbies. Rollie Pollie Ollie, I can handle. Teletubbies … no thanks. Not even on acid.
by ‘earth’ I assume you mean the manifold universe,
in that case whether you believe the universe is 10,000 years old or a billion years old really makes no difference - -either way one has the insurmountable problem of the ‘initial state’
the answer to your question does not lie in the past -
.
Good for you man, seriously.
What do you think my question is?
The answer to your question is no, there are no “young Earth” creationists here, or, as far as I can tell, anywhere else. To the best of my knowledge I have never met one or ever talked with anyone about their meeting one.
I am sure you can dig up one of these or anything else you want somewhere, but this is just another strawman that the courageous among us boldly knock down.
There are YEC members in the LR.
Why aren’t they participating in this thread.
As weird as it may seem to us, not everyone like having the same 24-page debates on a monthly basis … with the same folks, saying the same things, etc.
We’re more regular than a menstruel cycle … hopefully, that’s where the similarities end.
You are obvioulsly mixing with the wrong kind of people Art.
Why aren’t they participating in this thread.
Because they’re not interested in offering themselves up to Jack’s transparent and sophmoric assault?
I agree that they read the OP and likely said, “Hey Look! A blaze orange tripwire.”
This is the argument given to me by a coworker.
"the ‘evidence’ for the earth being billions of years old is based on radioactive decay of elements.
radioactive decay rates are based the fine structure constant.
there is evidence that the fine structure constant is not constant but has changed over the last 6000 years. "
Ask the YEC, “What is the evidence that the constant is changed, how to you analyze that evidence, and is the degree of change enough to account for the difference between 5B and 6K years?”
The problem w/ YEC is that it is being led by “scientists” whose conclusions are in direct opposition with the leaders of the scientific fields. Other than quote-mining and repeating arguements, many YECs cannot further explain their position. It’s a tough position to be in, one cannot be an expert in all fields.
There is a cracking anecdote in The God Delusion about an American Scientist called Kurt Wise who directs the Centre for Origins Research at Bryan College, Dayton, TN.
Bryan as in William Jennings of the Dayton Money Trial, 1925.
Wise has an undergraduate from University of Chicago, 2 post grad degrees from Harvard (Geology and Paleontology) where he studied under Steven Jay Gould.
So the story goes that Wise was unable to reconcile the fact that his education clashed with his fundamentalist religious beliefs that the earth is less than 10k years old. The study of geology requiring as a fundamental belief that the earth is billions of years old.
The story says that the conflict within Wise built to a head where upon he decided that he would go through the Bible line by line and remove every reference / verse with a pair of scissors that would have to go if the scientific world view were true.
He was left with so little that the bible would fall apart were he to attempt to pick it up and he decided that he had to pick between Scripture or Science. Either scripture was true and evolution was not, or vice versa.
In Wise’s own words he decided that night to accept the word of god and reject anything that countered it, including evolution.
“With that, in great sorrow, I tossed in to the fire all my dreams and hopes in science”.
I thought that the God Delusion was fantastic but this part of the book stood out. What a waste of the best and the brightest. An individual that can see the inherent conflict between religion and science, who is unable to reconcile it, and so gives up on science. Thats pretty tragic really.
I’m reading it and will get back to you. I think it was tragic because there are theists that have managed to reconcile science and religion to varying degrees and not felt it necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater as it were when a conflict appeared.
I think it was tragic because there are theists that have managed to reconcile science and religion
I totally agree. I also think the inability of so many more people to reconcile their belief in science with religion is tragic.