that is of course true. But even if you normalize for swimming background you are going to get very telling data. Or put in practice: you give me two adult onset swimming triathletes who’ve swam a similar amount the past two years, and have them do the test, the results will be very predictive of who the better swimmer is.
I’ll update the thread. bad news : (
swim to run mileage is a 4-1 ratio . so 1 mile of run should be the equivilent skills set to 400 m of swim.
So a 5 min mile run and a 5 min 400m swim would say you are equal abilities.
Vs a 6 mile run and 5 min 400m you are a better swimmer.
I am not sure I would say wall push offs are that big a factor overall (especially for adult onset learners)
But you can tell a lot about ( how relaxed they can be post push off) ( how patient ) body awareness with water high and timing to start swimming etc. some tells in there for sure but…
My n=1 experience in my non-fast, non-competitive (triathlete masters groups, several) has been this has not be remotely true at all at my level of MOP swimming.
I’ve done this drill with various tri masters groups (2 groups and 1 tri camp week), and was surprised to see that in my limited looking around, I saw no correlation with how far any of us did in terms of the wall pushoff distance (no swimming) after the coach taught everyone the correct streamline position (I’d learned it already, but a bunch of folks don’t know that their arms have to be nearly behind their ears if you’re doing it right).
I basically couldn’t tell in the water by looking left and right who was ahead/behind, we were all so close.
For sure, though, once we started swimming sets, I recall that two women in the lane to my left who equaled my wall push (but swam a good 20+sec/100 slower than me), were always instantly dropped the moment I took one pull. We’d start the pushoff together, they’d be right next to me, equal in position, and after one pull, I was half a body length ahead. I wasn’t beating them through my awesome wall push.
I’m also skeptical that that super-streamlined position is realistic for actual freestyle swimming. I think it’s a good drill just to show HOW much more streamlined one can get in the water if you put your whole body into shaping it, but I’m certainly not doing that position in the middle of a freestyle stroke, ever - if you try and do it even with one arm while swimming freestyle, you instantly get a cross-over hand position out front. The much more realistic drill position that you can get during freestyle swimming is more of a superman position, without the hands overlapped in front.
Still, you def could be right - in competitive swim squads where people are all training hard and talented, so the gaps are smaller than what I’m seeing in my tri groups, some people might just be more hydrodynamic in the water through shape or trained position, and for sure that will lead to faster speeds. I’m just noting that it hasn’t been anywhere that clear when I’ve done this drill with tri groups of really varied paces, and that the people a lot slower than me are nearly my equal on the streamline drill (this could also mean either I have a bad streamline, which is less likely given several coaches have ok’d it in real-time for me, or that I’m just built like a tugboat rather than a seal, and that is absolutely possible, if not more likely!)
I am not sure what to tell you other than, well, you are wrong : )
Hah just telling exactly what I’ve seen. It would be a terrible test to see who is fast in a typical tri club masters swim.
I guess I am the exception that proves the rule. Adult onset swimmer who couldn’t glide to save my life, took ~21-23 strokes per 25scy, breathed first stroke off the wall and last stroke into the wall. You’d have looked at me and said “nah, not the better swimmer”.
My 1 hour pool swim PR was 4765yds.
(FWIW wrt the mile/400m thing: N=1 4:53 mile, 500scy 5:17.9)
This thread has the feeling of going down in ST history. IDK if I should get popcorn or flat coke while I catch up
Butter and some salt on the popcorn please. Cherry coke? You betcha; flat? No way.
3,800 endurance swim based off a single 10m wall push off? Like estimating a 15km run based on a 50m sprint. Weak sauce. It’s October 1st. Not April 1st
the wall push off test doesn’t measure endurance. It’s a way to look at some of the (not all of the) mechanics that are predictive of good swim technique and body position.
If you have the technique the fitness building is easy.
It would be a terrible test to see who is fast in a typical tri club masters swim.
I coached a tri club and it was incredibly predictive. Which doesn’t mean 100%. And lets be honest, you’ve never done the test Ive described; Observing how your streamline off the wall compares to others is not the same thing as a single test where the only thing you are measuring is that streamline. Heck, just by looking at others while you do this (as you described) would distort the results.
I guess I am the exception that proves the rule. Adult onset swimmer who couldn’t glide to save my life, took ~21-23 strokes per 25scy, breathed first stroke off the wall and last stroke into the wall. You’d have looked at me and said “nah, not the better swimmer”.
Ken, to the extent I was and am a better swimmer than you, is it because I am more fit as a swimmer or because I am more efficient?
You may be right, i wasn’t on the deck and watching for subtle differences. But even if all I did was take a brief glance at the very end when I was done with my glide, you can see that the slowsters next to you are at my exact spot. If there was a difference it was so small it was impossible for me to tell.
But one pull, yep, I’m half a body ahead.
Color me super skeptical that testing of a streamline position reflects someone’s true freestyle hydrodynamic drag when they’re taking strokes, rotating, and breathing at the same time all of which are quite different than an off the wall streamline position.
Not a clue. Most likely you were more efficient. Possibly because those times were within four or five years of starting swimming, with a lifetime max yardage of 20,000yds for any week. Possibly because I am more of a sprinter (in swim, bike, and run (well, maybe not bike)) than an endurance athlete: 58.88 100IM scy vs. 2:11.35 200IM, for instance.
What I do know is that if you judged me by a 10m wall push-off, you’d have been unimpressed, even for a triathlete.
that is fine. I’d encourage you to think more about body allignment and what a simple streamline reveals. You’ve worked really hard at swimming, much harder than most. And yet, as you’ve posted in your own words, you been very frustrated by your results. Perhaps your experience confirms exactly what I am suggesting?
Of course, I’m sure I can improve my streamline any many other things. But what I’m doing right now isn’t terrible, and for sure no coach tells me I have some fatal flaw(s) that is killing my speed. At this point, I’m pretty certain I’m just hitting the limit of my intrinsic ability for my age. At this point, even training 2x the volume and intensity yields really diminishing results, i’ve found. But for sure I’m overdue for another underwater video to see what else I can improve on.
And yes, it’s frustrating to be this not-naturally-even-average at swimming for a triathlete for how hard I work at it, especially compared to how much better I’ve done on the bike and even the run without worrying about it or thinking about it anywhere as much. Alas, now that I’m aging up, even the run is starting to fail me, my calves are suddenly getting so weak that I can’t even train in supershoes or even normal forefoot-strike shoes (Adidas Evo-SL) anymore all of a sudden in the past half year even though my run training has been completely what it used to be (around 30-35mpw typically.) My pace has suffered a corresponding toll as well, I don’t think I’ll be able to get the same performance of top 9% in my AG I did at my last 70.3, it’s going to drop a good deal lower than that for sure.
Jessie, I would suggest that you are a better/faster swimmer than most swimmers mainly b/c you have more swim-specific strength than most swimmers.
In the last few years I am swimming much better now than before at my preferred distance Ow style events - say around 2km.
Its not streamline off the wall per se, but its ability to streamline and hold my glide for further each stroke. When I am swimming a lot and in shape, I can just glide more each stroke and go faster. Whether its ability to sort of feel my hips up higher, pushing my head down further, feeling more power and tension through my kick, or just feeling the slide on my arm before I take a breath - I dont know what it is, but I can feel it when I am out of shape and when I am in shape.
So putting it your way, if I was more compact and powerful and tense in my natural floating state, and could hold that tightened state better, yes I would also absolutely be much faster.
And then If I Put it another way - if I had the same stroke and was 7foot tall I would be much faster.
Both (body glide ability and height / length) are important. just cant grow 25cm 
Have you posted a video of yourself swimming yet, or are you still clogging up every swimming thread with spam?
I 100% agree that you can tell a lot about how someone will swim by how they look pushing off a wall.