Here’s a thought I’ve had for a long time based on observations of our MANY customers who do Ironman: The central challenge or obstacle at Ironman is exercising non-stop for 10-17 hours. With that knowledge, consider the sports physiology training principle of “specificity” which dictates that if you want to do some specific task (i.e. swim/bike/run 140.6 miles in under 17 hours)in racing you need to do it in training. That said, many of our customers prepare very well for 8 hours of exercise. Problem is, their race takes 11-17 hours. The final hours are very difficult since they have not prepared for them specifically. One customer told me “Do your long rides and long runs on seperate days so you can recover more completely”. It is not my practice to offer training advice, but I thought to myself “Isn’t that the point? Go long so as to tax your endurance/recovery capacity until it is ready for 11-17 hours of exercise?” I’m no Ironman athlete (I’ve done 3 and my Ironman PR is 10:45:00 at Canada and I KNOW I can do better) but I think having some 10-11 hour workouts in your preperation makes sound physiological sense. Thoughts?
Advantage - specificity of training
Disadvantage - an 11 hour workout day can put you out of the action for 3 days. And who’s got that kind of time.
To my mind after three hours and particularly after 5 or 6 you are really working on training your energy systems and mind. I’m not really solidly convinced as to the degree that energy systems are trainable. And if they are can we honestly put in the kind of hours needed to do it.
Is one 10 hour mega workout good enough? It’s better than nothing I suppose. Is five? Maybe but go ahea dand tell someone you did five ironman races last year tey’ll quickly say that seems like a lot ad mention somethign about tearing your body up.
Are five, 10 hour workouts that much different?
Thsi came up last year about this time where someonw worte an article saying you should do a “Mega” workout of 6 hours length once a month every month startinf six months out. Lotsof people thought this was too much.
So what if we now say that 10 hours is what we need, not 6. Can a body take that much pounding.
This isn’t quite agreeing with the idea of biking and running on separate days. That has advanages and disadvantages.
If it were me I’d do most of my long bikes and long runs on separate days. But I’d do two “race simulations” that got up around 8 hours in length.
That’s just me. What I hope to do for my next IM.
There is a good article on “Megas” somewhere on this site, that talks about 7-8 hour workouts/modified bricks.
Jima
My IM PR is 9:09 and the most I’ve ever done is 7-8 hours in one shot as a brick or run/bike/run to top off a high volume (build) week. Pretty much all above IM race pace about 5 weeks out before an IM. For me thats pretty heavy duty as my usual weekly volume is very low. Personally, I wouldn’t want to attempt much more than that in a single session.
I knew there would be lots of good comments on this one. I’ll add one thought in here: Lots of people seem to think recovery is resting and doing nothing after a long training session. My concept of good recovery is very pro-active and purposeful. When the workout is over you put your equipment away and get 300-500 calories in you even before you hit the shower (during your “glycogen window”). After a shower I get horizontal as quickly as possible, maybe even take some anti-inflammatories. Lots of Protein and fluids to help rebuild and very little activity. I avoid people altogether as you are most susceptible to getting sick following one of these workouts. A good meal is important but not a huge, fatty, dense calorie thing that will tax your (now) burned out digestive system. The following day I keep ALL my activity pretty light, including simple things like not getting involved in projects or interactions that are stressful. I pretty much unplug from the world. More sleep, a nap, more food, and an easy spin on the bike to stay loose, then a massage for at least an hour. Avoiding people again and just trying to stay horizontal and off my feet, then the following day easing back into training so that three days later I am back up to some pretty hard/long stuff again. Proactive “aggresive” recovery is so important. That is a key ingredient.
I suspect that young athletes (17-25) who need the base and older athletes who can’t handle as much speed, would benefit most from longer workouts. I don’t think such long workouts are necessary for guys in their endurance prime and may actually be contraindicated because of the chance of injury. Guys like Kevin aren’t going to go out and run 10 min/mile easy runs for 4 hours after a long easy bike workout. They are going to TEND to hammer much more in their training, which I think is more beneficial at their age and condition.
Much of this depends on the individual and a host of training issues that are best left to the athlete and his/her coach, in my view. Some old guys will thrive on speed work, some 35 year olds will thrive on 15 hour workouts. One of my buddies, who is 47, is doing 200 miles on the Skyline Drive this weekend. That’s about 13-14 hours of very difficult riding. Does that make training sense for everyone? Obviously not. Actually, I don’t think it makes training sense for anyone… :),
-Robert,
I’m thinking Kevin is a “natural” endurance athlete with some kind of genetic predisposition to Ironman. Impressive performances. I don’t think I could go 9:09:00 on that amount of time, but then again, I started out in a special education gym class (not kidding).
Hey Tom-
I’m curious. With all the experience you have with endurance sports. How come you don’t coach?
At least why the statement “It’s not my practice to offer training advice”
There’s a lot of people offering advice out there with far less race time experience as you. There’s a lot one could learn from you.
Is it a matter of focus? Priorities?
Dan
Wether or not you need to work out for 10 hrs in a day, I don’t really know. I think the many athletes training for Ironman have a bad habit of stopping way too often on their long bike rides. Their training rides bear little similarity to their actions on race day.
You can’t stop every 45-60 minutes on your long bike rides to refill water, take piss, have some coffee, buy a bagel, etc… Most people dont’ race like that, but it’s how they train. If you are going to piss while riding on the bike in the ironman, do it in training too. Take tons of water\gatorade\GU on your bike so that you don’t have to stop and refill all the time (as if you were picking up bottles at aid stations). Don’t do every long ride with a group of your closest friends. They won’t be there on race day. I also think that “long slow distance” should not be confused with EZ pace. With a camelbak and proper planning I can get through a 110-120 mile ride with only two short stops. That’s what works for me.
I wonder if a 10-11 hr workout would turn into a stop n go ordeal that wouldn’t really be that meaningful for preparation. I think that very focused pace workouts in the 5-7 hour range might be more helpful for most.
I think 10, 11, 12 hour workouts would be too much for the body to take. That’s why Ironman is so difficult, it’s a stretch you can only make so often, mentally and physically. At that length of time, you are really getting into ‘ultra’ sports, similar that 50-100 mile ultra-runners don’t go out and run 50-100 mile runs for training. (even marathon racers wouldn’t normally run 26 miles in training, that’s reserved for race day)
My limit seems to be around 6-7 hours training for a given long day as I approach Ironman.
I do agree with the post that too many people do their so-called ‘long’ rides as several short rides with 15-20 minute breaks in between. That’s a mistake. With my aero bottle, two frame bottles, two seatpost bottles, I’m good for 3 hours on the bike with no stops at all. I also follow most of my long bikes with a run, even if for only 10-30 minutes, being sure that I’ve stayed hydrated enough to control my heartrate. If I get off the bike after a long ride, and my HR goes to 90% regardless of how slow I’m running, I know I would be in serious trouble if I had to go 26.
All excellent points Kyle - especially about not stopping - thats huge. Although I will piss on the bike in a race I won’t do it in training so I do stop for that. 
I agree about doing it solo too I just don’t always practise it. I’m lucky enough to have a few good training buddies all around the same level of ability who don’t mind doing TTT style when its time to go long. Trust me, it can be just as hard as riding 112 in an IM solo if you get up to the front to do your fair share of the work. Its also a very quick to plow thru a 100 miles. 
Seems to me that there is a difference between the age group athlete that want to finish an ironman - or even a couple a year - and do the best he can, and the elite or pro that wants to really excel and do multiple ironman a year. The old adage of ‘don’t do the race before the race’ will protect you from injury but not prepare you for an optimal race. Certainly the training time committment is a factor here.
Gordo speaks to something I think he calls ‘endurance threshold’ in his four pillars article. It is an interesting realization that we (age groupers) are not really bonking, but expiring our (time) threshold.
I had done swim/long runs as an excercise in fatigue training… while trying to avoid the beating that a run over 3 hours would give my body.
All the very good age groupers I know swear by 110/18+ bricks. You can’t do them every weekend, but they feel the need for some in their training. Yes, a long brick like that kills your Saturday, and most likely your weekend, but you want to train towards what you are racing.
I do long rides, and I do long runs. Specificity in your training is certainly going to help. However, you need to be able to come off the bike and run 26 miles. If you do no long brick training, and some short brick training, your body is not going to be prepared for it. (I do at least two shorter bricks a week, and lately try to do a reverse brick also.)
I am figuring at least 4 long bricks for IMF03, the last one 4 weeks before the race. It will not be at race pace, but will be similar to race conditions. Riding 5 hours with aero bars on flat roads takes a toll on your back, and I want to practice that. I will do 110/20 brick on very flat roads.
I feel there is also some mental toughening doing 10-11 hours of training. It goes by much slower than a race, and is so freaking boring. Usually we have 3 or 4 people doing it together, but still it is mentally tough.
One of my long training partners describes all most of his Satudays leading up to IMH: “Get up at 6 AM. Drive up to gaps. Ride 100 in the mountains. Run 17. Drive home. Order pizaa. After pizza arrives, take a nap. Get up and eat pizza. Go to bed.”
This is an interesting question. As another poster mentioned its very dependent on the individual and where that person is in relation to their multisport career. A first time IM with little racing endurance experience such an workout is more than likely to cause burn out both physical and mental. Whereas a seasoned racer might very well get benefit from such a workout. For a newbie it might be better for them to have a long lead into to the race say 8months of consistent training with a gradual build up in distance and volume, so that with a good taper will allow them to finish the race.
Whereas the other racer might have a 3month IM specific training period, knowing that the deep base accumulated from years past will allow them to overreach in training with no ill effect. Even then an 11 hr day is an entire race day for them, and even if they did not train with intensity above their race pace its still a big risk from the point of view of burn out, chance of injury and recovery. I am no where near being an elite more like a solid MOP with 3IM under my belt going for #4 at IMC 03, and I know that one month after an IM race I am in no shape to get back to training let alone race.
I think what I am getting at is with consistent training, the training effect is progressive, same principal for a newbie as well as a seasoned racer, difference being the seasoned racer also accumulates the training effect over years not only months. So for the newbie they may not be ready for an 11hr day in June but by August they may be ready (for instance if IMC is their A race) In June they maybe/should be ready for a long brick say 80-100miles bike and 1hr run, or 70miles and 2hr run.
Another question closely linked to the above is training intensity for the 11-17hr crowd (of which I am one) some of the ultrafit (Friel) coaches advocate the majority of training be in the aerobic zone (basically, that zone most of MOPs would love to race the entire race at) and that too much time spent above that zone is deterimental as it raises the bar for burn out/injury and prolongs the recovery process. If I understand it correctly, the other component aside from aerobic endurance is not speed but sport specific strenght. I think this is very true for most of us MOP.
Not sure what you guys think about this. Maybe kevin can give us an idea of what his IM racing zones were but I suspect somewhat more intense than aerobic, at least for part of the day.
“Much of this depends on the individual and a host of training issues that are best left to the athlete and his/her coach, in my view.” Absolutely. Also on the Tour De Skyline is another buddy who ran 15 yesterday, finished Boston in 3:15, did another marathon three weeks prior, and routinely bikes 800 miles/month, runs 200 miles/month, swims I forget, 30 miles/month? This same guy will do a 1/2IM the Wednesday before IM race day, follow it up with a 40 mile ride on Thursday. He’s a throwback to the early days, but it works for him.
As a BOP the key ingredient for me is race-pace. The whole notion of calling IM a race, for me, sets me up for a very rough go of it. The best advice I ever got regarding the race was the first advice I ever got. Find an easy gear on the bike, and then back it off one more. Overstated to some degree but the point was/is clear.
Key ingrediant for training has been, or may be, elimiating the big volume and LSD stuff. I’ll know July 28th whether it’s worked or not. My overall volume has been reduced 25-30% this year. Intensity is up. We’ll see if less is more.
I tend to agree with Tom D. I have tried most training approaches mentioned before but I hardly ever go longer than 6-7hr. Although my IM PR is 10:15hr I consider it my weakest event as I alway have problems with my stomach and digestion and last year never even finished under 11hr. In contrast in a Half IM I am usually around 4:30hr. So it seems that they only way to really find out which nutritional strategy works I have to come as close as possible to race condition/duration.
Tom,
Excellent question. I have thought this one over myself many times.
I hear what you are saying about specificity. I am a big believer in that. If you want to run 6:00 min/mile in a marathon, you better run a lot of 6:00 min miles in training. This IS what the physiology is all about. I have a BSc in Biochemistry so I know and beileve this to be true.
However, for longer events, an Ironman triathlon in this case it can be impractical, illogical and unsafe to duplicate the event in training. I think that you can come close and there are some simulation type of work-outs that can be done, but there really is no way that you can replicate in training how you are going to feel at the 1/2 way mark in the marathon in an Ironman tri, unless you do it in training, which as I stated, has it’s own risks and hazards. Even after 9 modestly successful IM races with a best time of 9:04, I still felt like I was heading into an aerobic no-mans-land after the 6 - 7 hour mark of an IM race. I was really unsure of what was going to happen - great race, OK race or complete blow-up
My feeling, and I have no evidence to back this up is that there is an “extention factor”. Many marathon runners have great first marathons after jumping up from 10K and adding a few 20 mile runs. It is rare for a marathon runner to run 26.2 miles in training. So, perhaps there is a similar extention factor in IM tris - If you have done the RIGHT training, you are well rested, in peak form and race sensibly, you can squeeze out a few extra hours at a given workload. Just taking a guess here from personal experience and observation of others
time, not distance, is the key. Bruce Fordyce, who dominated the Comrades Marathon (88km) for a decade, and set several world records for ultramarathons, never ran over 60km in training. But he did spend 5-6 hours on the road, about the time it took him in the race. For ultra training, I liked to do runs that took longer than I expected to race, but over much shorter distances (20-30miles only). This worked well for me, seldom had endurance problems. So there might well be something in it… but I don’t know how you’d structure a day like that. Running long after biking long would probably destroy your legs.
I remember sometime ago a quote from Mark Allen that he fianally had success in Kona after realizing that he could not prepare for an 8+ hour race while going 6-7 hrs max in training. Makes you go Hmmm?
One of the biggest reasons to go long (or “epic”, as used elsewhere on Slowtwitch) is to prepare yourself mentally for the challenges you’ll face during the race. Training the mental endurance is at least as important as the physical. If you never experience the physical sensations during training that you’ll face in the race, you will not be fully prepared to handle them in the race. The only way to experience some of these aspects is to train long. Overdistance rides. Long duration runs (but not necessarily overdistance). Long swim sets. Long bricks over projected race time.
For you IMers out there, when was the last time you really sweated over a 10k or even a 10mile race, or a 40k TT? For most of us a 10k or 40k is merely a warmup to “real” racing. We’re confident that we can be strong over that distance. We have experienced every possible mental state over that distance. That will automatically make us stronger at the distance. This same logic applies to longer duration events.
Of course the difficulty lies in accomplishing this overdistance training at those volumes without injuring ourselves. That is a monumental task that takes years to build up to. Not only that, the average AGer likely doesn’t have the time for these workouts on a regular basis.
Someone quoted Mark Allen earlier in the thread. He certainly didn’t start out doing the epic work that became part of his legend. Neither did Molina. But when they did, they took the sport to places it had never come close to before. While certainly not discounting their physical prowess, much of their strength was mental. They knew that not only could they go the distance, but they could race longer, harder and faster than anyone else. In short, they knew how to REALLY suffer. That is the real benefit of long training.