Applying to graduate school

Triathlon Forum
1

i’m a 4th year at Case, graduating in may. ever since i took the GREs in october, i’ve been doing the “grad school hunt” thing. i’ve already visited three schools, and i plan to visit a fourth. the transcripts are all sent, the recommendations have all been requested, and i’m about a week away from finishing all the apps (5 down, 5 to go).

is anyone else going through the same process?

has anyone else already been through the process?

words of wisdom? words of mockery?

i will say this: this is a scary process. when i was looking at undergrad schools, i knew that i needed to get into a good one, but that i still had options. now that i’m looking at grad schools, i know that if i go to duke (for example), i will be an expert on head/neck/spine biomechanics, but if i go to cornell (for another example), i will be an expert on the grip control. to oversimplify things: within a few months, the course of the rest of my professional life will have been laid out.

2

Marcie the Mermaid has just started applying for various Ph.d programs in her field. The applicaton process has been somewhat lengthy, but she has a relaxed demeanor and doesn’t stress over anything.

The bigger questions for her has been which grad school to attend from a perspective of the programs offered and their geographic orientation. She already has a Master’s in her field and work experience so she is looking to perhap enter academics or private practice.

When I look at people like you and her I am consistently amazed at the incredible dedication, endurance and amount of work they put into these programs. Amazing.

-Good luck my friend.

3

My wife, who already has a DVM degree and is currently a practicing veterinarian, recently went through the process of applying to Residency/PhD programs in anatomic pathology. For us (and I do mean ‘Us’ because this was a joint effort and decision) the process was not all that bad or stressfull.

She applied to about eight programs (Cornell, Colorado State, Florida State, U. Penn., and a few others I’m forgetting) and was accepted by five, including her top two choices (Cornell and CSU). Only one schooled turned her down (Penn) and the others she withdrew from consideration.

We made the trips to investigate both, and she felt most at home in the CSU program. And, we both liked Fort Collins. So, next summer we are Colorado bound.

Words of advice: Stay patient, and don’t forget their is life outside of school. To a large degree, it’s out of your hands now.

No words of mockery … you’re doing a noble thing. You have my respect.

Oh … when I was in grad school, it was a totally different process. My undergrad school offered me a lot of money, free tuition, a GTA position, and a few other perks to continue in their grad program. How could I turn that down?

Good luck.

4

I’ve just started the process to apply to an MA program, although I’ll be going back to where I just graduated from, so my guess is that my process is a little different/less daunting. How was the GRE though? Did you have to take to general test?

5

Impressive list of prospects, but one thing to consider is that it’s not so much where you go to grad school, but who you work with. Of course if you go to Duke or Cornell, you will likely be working with top notch individuals in the field. But since, as you state, to a certain extent the course of your professional life will be set, try to go somewhere you will enjoy, and work with someone you, minimally, respect. I take it you are coming out of your BS. Are you applying for a Ph.D.? Have you thought about doing an MS to get a feel for what you want to do? If you are applying for M.S., your career is not set. The M.S. will just demonstrate that you have the capacity for grad work, and can be productive in the lab. From an M.S., you still have quite a bit of lattitude in where you can go and what you can do, because, contrary to what you might think, you really won’t be an expert in anything at that point. Once you are into your Ph.D., then you are a little more set with regard to your course. Finally, when you do your post-doc, then your options are very limited. Since you are going into Biomech, I am fairly familir with options. So, depending on what level you are applying to, I would recommend 1) do an M.S. to get a better feel for what you want to do 2) try to talk to students from the program, or better yet, the lab you would like to get into. They will not always be honest, but you might be able to read between the lines. 3) depends on 1 and 2.

6

I’m in the process of this myself for a Masters in Exercise Physiology. Gotten one app in and three others are in the works (they all had different deadlines.)

Took GREs, getting transcripts sent, letters of recommendation, all that. It is definitely a administrative endurance sport all its own. The real scary part to me is thinking about all the people who apply and are just a folder that goes across a desk. How can you choose that way? Anyway, I made a definite effort to visit 3 of the 4 schools I wanted to attend and meeting all the profs. I want them to see me as more than just a folder on the desk and I wanted to see them to get a sense of what it would be like to (essentially) live with these people for 2 years.

Here’s looking forward to March when the final answers come down. Good luck!

7

I"m going to have to face this sooner than I expected. I originally planned to graduate in May of 06, but found out the other week that i’ll be graduating next december. If it makes you feel any better, you’re way ahead of me! Christmas break will be spent figuring out what options are out there for me, in regards to where i’ll be going to school, as well as learning about all of the different programs (I’m getting my undergrad degree in Exercise Sci, and going to Physical Therapy school. ) Luckily, I have a friend that’s going through the same thing right now so we can compare notes. Either way, good luck!

ps. how were the GRE’s?

8

I am currently in Grad school. The application part was easy for me, since I am attending the same school where I received my undergrad. One thing you should try and get is a Graduate Assistantship in the program you are entering. At my college, they pay for your tuition and give you a nice monthly paycheck for just 20 hrs. of your service a week.

Matt

9

All I can do is wish you the best. I am studying for the GMAT right now, and expect to apply to Brandeis for their MSF prgram in the Spring. It will be interesting to try to juggle work and school again, but add triathlon training into the mix.

One thing I will say: While I don’t know a whole lot about exercise physiology, don’t feel as if you are walking down a path that will determine the course of your whole career. You can always go back to school, your interests can change, and inevitably, you will find yourself in a place far from where you ever expected to be.

Grad school is a time-consuming endeavor, and one that will give you a specialty, but that doesn’t force you to walk a narrow path in life.

I have now had about 7 different careers(I’m 37, and define a ‘career’ as a job that requires a skill set that is distinctive from those required for other jobs) and expect that I will have at least two to three more. I hope that the final one will be writing for a living, but I am still caught up in the whole fantasy of being a financial industry whore, and have a couple more years of it before I am sufficiently disillusioned to trade financial security for personal satisfaction. (I actually like what I do, just not the company I do it for.)

Whatever school you end up going to, do your best, be true to yourself, and realize that the journey never ends, you simply change vehicles from time to time.

10

to oversimplify things: within a few months, the course of the rest of my professional life will have been laid out.

I am about to finish up a Ph.D. program at a large state school, and have a post-doc fellowship lined up at an Ivy League school in a different field from the one I currently study (cell/molecular bio vs. human physiology which I currently do). What I’m saying is that your future is less defined than you’d think, especially if you’re going for a Master’s - I’m assuming this is for a PhD tho. You’d be surprised by the chances you’re given if people feel you can be trained. As specialized as you think Grad School is, there is probably a lot of overlap b/w programs, but it depends on the field (is this for PT?)

Here are some of my impressions:

– be absolutely, positively sure you want AND need to go to Grad School. I know a lot of folks who go b/c they didn’t want to work, parents expected it, they want a title, and they’re all wasting their time and income years. Don’t be afraid to defer or postpone if you’re not sure. OTOH, don’t be afraid to make brave moves once you’re certain.
– Grad school is great fun - don’t let the whiners drag you down. People like to complain, and grad students are no exception.
– Go somewhere that has funding - not a given even at those schools since it depends on your faculty advisor. You don’t want to teach if you can do research for your assistantship.
– Go somewhere where your personality matches w/ the faculty. Getting along w/ your advisor is unbelievably important. If you’re a hard charger, and he/she is laid back, it can be frustrating (and vice versa).
– Find out what’s important in your field (publications, teaching, service, …) and do it as early as possible. If you go for an MA as part of your PhD, settle on a thesis topic by the end of the first semester.

There’s some books out there on how to make it thru Grad School. Feel free to PM and I’ll try to find it.

GOOD LUCK!

11

the GREs were scary, but i guess i’m decent at standardized tests, so it wasn’t that bad. just get a book that has a) a vocab list, b) a section of math review, and c) lots and lots of practice tests. you might find it useful to take 2 tests in a row (ie overdistance training) - i never spent more than 45 minutes taking a practice test 'cause i never practiced writing, but the real deal involved writing, and then 3 sections of multiple choice (rather than 2 in each test). so i got tired.

i’m applying for a PhD in a biomechanics program (it’s BME at most schools, MechE at a few). The List is as follows: Stanford Duke Cornell UT-Austin Northwestern Harvard UPenn Columbia Case Rutgers

my GPA isn’t super-great, but it’s on the upswing, and i have a lot of experience in the field from internships. and the GREs went very well. i’m not guaranteed to get in to grad schools, but i have a feeling that i’ll get in to at least a few.

also, i am absolutely sure i want to go to grad school. i was built for this. i love research, i love biomechanics, and i know that i won’t have learned enough of it in undergrad to make a dent.

i thought briefly about MS, but i know that i want to get a PhD, and the fact that there is more money for fellowships for PhDs than for MS’s is one more nail in the coffin, so to speak.

12

I am consistently amazed at the incredible dedication, endurance and amount of work they put into these programs. Amazing.

you know, nobody believes me when i say that tri training is more than just athletic. i honestly think that i would’ve cracked under the pressure of this process months ago if i hadn’t already been in that situation (12 snowy miles from home (running), or bonkingd and 20 hilly miles left in the rain (cycling) - true stories for another post) and survived by sheer determination.

last year, i went to a leadership training school through my fraternity. at the end of the week, the guy hosting it made us write letters to ourselves, which he mailed only recently. i’d written down a few goals (all of which i’ve already met), but at the bottom, i wrote, “the race has already started, and you’re still in the small ring. SHIFT, BRIDGE, AND ATTACK”. something about that has stuck with me for the past few days.

13

applying to med. schools right now…so i suppose in a similar boat.

i’ve found the toughest part up here (canada) is the waiting, i don’t find out about interviews until feb, and then don’t find out about actually getting in or not until june.

that said, i still have another potential year of undergrad left, i picked up a 2nd degree this year, so i could finish that next year if things don’t pan out, then try it again.

as for standardized testing…i think that might be the one thing that saves me…gpa isn’t great, but MCAT went well. and i’m really really hoping that this ironman thing has something to say about character…we shall see…hehe

anyway, best of luck! looks like a pretty impressive repetoire of schools you’re applying to!

14

i thought briefly about MS, but i know that i want to get a PhD, and the fact that there is more money for fellowships for PhDs than for MS’s is one more nail in the coffin, so to speak.

$18-20 k vs. what, $10-15? Sure, it’s a lot of money for somebody that’s undergrad right now. In the long run though, taking a lesser amount of money to do an MS and be sure about (or at least more sure) what you want to do is worth it in my book. Been there, done that and more, and I’ve seen a lot of absolutely miserable people because they feel like they’re trapped in something they don’t want to do, and there is no way out. Worse yet, blindly walk into a lab that is a meat grinder and end up having to slit their own throats career wise, or just quit. Now, I don’t wont’ to be gloomy Glen, but going directly into Ph.D. from undergrad doesn’t seem good for the student if you ask me. It’ great for the lab, they get you as an indentured servant for 5 or 6 six years, of which 4 or 5 will be productive, whereas if they get you from a MS, you are only productive for 2 or 3. If you have not identified a specific person at each of these programs you want to work with, it seems premature to me for you to be doing a doctorate. Again, you will not be locked into a career path until you do your post-doc, and even then, if you are motivated and a risk taker you can still find other options, but many fewer options than if you do things earlier. You asked for advice so this is mine, … take this opportunity, while you are young and “free” to explore your options.

My .02

15

Maybe I’m a ignorant of your field, but don’t you have to get the MS before you start the PhD? Or, are you applying to combined MS/PhD programs? Just curious.

16

taking a lesser amount of money to do an MS

i didn’t explain well enough; from what i’ve seen, the case is this: PhD students (in engineering) get grants (ie, get paid to go to school) and MS students get loans. i don’t actually care how much of a stipend i get, but i definitely don’t want to go into debt.

If you have not identified a specific person at each of these programs you want to work with, it seems premature to me for you to be doing a doctorate.

actually, i do. especially at cornell, duke, stanford, and case. i’ve talked with them, looked around their labs, talked with their grad students. i am enamored of the idea of being a grad student. also, what scares me is not knowing what my specialty will be - each of these specialties, though, seem to be things i’d love to do. if they weren’t, i wouldn’t apply (as was the case with some other schools that are strong in biomechanics, but not my kind of biomechanics)

i don’t mean to sound like i’m rejecting your advice, but it conflicts with what i’ve found.

17

you sorta get the MS while pursuing the PhD. i was talking to a grad student at Stanford this summer, and i asked how the process works. she said, “i don’t know, i guess i’ll be getting my MS soon”. to which her advisor, who was eavesdropping, replied “actually, you got it in May. congratulations”

18

I’m applying to grad schools right now too (Duke, UNC, UCSF, UCSD, Stanford, Harvard, UT-southwestern, Scripps research institute). I’m at Cornell right now, so if you come visit and want someone to show you around, PM me and we can set something up. Anyways, I’m applying for Molecular Biology programs, and here’s my take on things:

Grad School is to train you to be the best research scientist possible. If you happen to be in the subfield that you ultimately spend the rest of your life in, then that’s great, but the specific topic isn’t the most important thing right now. I’m most concerned with the personality of the professor and the group, the amount of money they have, whether the PI wants to train me or to have me be a research monkey, the opportunity for creative and unique projects, freedom in project topics, and the level of productivity shown by other members of the group. That being said, you can figure out who’s a brilliant and renowned intellect in your field on the web and from papers, but you can’t really tell whether they’re going to do a good job developing you as a scientist until you get to a school and spend 3 months in a rotation at their lab. For that reason, I’m trying to go to a school that has many strong faculty to pick from and the chance to do rotations (and in an area warmer than Ithaca). That’s just how I see it, but I know a lot of people who already know who they want to work with if they get into a school so to each their own.

As far as a masters goes, in Molec Bio, not worth it. The degree isn’t that strong (as compared to say a master of public health or other kinds of masters) and they make you pay for it. A lot of PhD programs will give you a masters anyways after your A exams, so if you really want, you leave with it then (and it’ll be free).

For those who asked about GREs- Definately study a lot of words, it’s a miserable time, but you can boost your score significantly by just learning 20 words a day in the month before the test. Also DO THE ELECTRONIC VERSIONS ONLINE at the ets website. The computer based testing takes a while to adjust to (especially since you can’t skip any questions) and it’s easy to get stuck on a question and not finish the section if you’re not used to it. Practice essay prompts on your computer, being able to write an excellent essay is very different than trying to bust one out in 30 min and the more practice you’ve had the better.

19

I did the whole grad school application dance a couple years back. It sucked. No, scratch that. It really sucked.

You’re right about the MS/PhD decision. There is almost no funding for MS students at most places. You’re basically there to add to the bottom line, whereas the PhD students are there to add to the schools publication record and future bragging rights. 3 guesses as to who gets funded.

Things vary from school to school, but in general the overwhelming thing they look at in phd-admits is evidence of potential for research. Your intern experiences may or may not show this, depending on what you did. Par for the course is usually a solid senior thesis, and even better is a senior thesis that got a publication somewhere. They do cut a fair amount of slack if you went to a school where that was difficult, i.e. small liberal arts schools and whatnot. Woe upon you if you went to a big research school and did no research as an undergrad. Grades, GREs, etc are usually things that determine if you get rejected rather than things that get you in.

A fair number of schools will seperate the PhD admits and the MS admits into a caste system. Occasionally, getting admited as an MS student is basically the kiss of death to applying to the PhD program. I dont know of any BME programs that are run this way, but its not unheard of.

If you have the chance, visit all the places that you got accepted to. Key things to look for: are the grad students happy? Whats the area like? Ask about how you get an advisor. If you go someplace with exactly one big name, then there’s usually a feeding frenzy to become their student. It’s rarely a positive experience. Will you have dental insurance or will the only affordable dental care drive up to campus in a van? (past pet peeve)

Also, ask (current grad students, not the shiny happy admissions people they have you talk to) how many years of hazing do you get? In most programs you get absolutely worked your first year. Some places, its two. Legend has it, some schools actually treat you pretty well your first year, but these tend to be a royal bitch to get into. Qual pass rates are also a factor, in general avoid places that throw you in with a couple hundred other people and make you take a qual with a 30% pass rate to get into the phd program.

So, yeah. Have, uh, fun. Yes, thats it. Fun.
http://www.phdcomics.com is a snarky look at grad student life, though you may want to hold off so you dont get prematurely jaded.

20

This is the case in a handful of schools, but usually, if you’re going to do a phd, you do it right after a BS. The MS is considered a terminal degree in a lot of fields these days.