Does anyone have any studies or literature that looks at the relationship between the run & bike? Specifically if a lot of running work over months is done that results in improved LT on the run, does it have a direct relationship to the LT or FTP on the bike.
Does anyone have any studies or literature that looks at the relationship between the run & bike? Specifically if a lot of running work over months is done that results in improved LT on the run, does it have a direct relationship to the LT or FTP on the bike.
Sadly, for other than couch potatoes one’s running fitness doesn’t seem to cross over to the bike. Phil Skiba has some good references to this in his books.
Hugh
it doesnt cross over
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I’m sure others will have lots of data saying that it doesn’t help, but in my experience it does.
For me at least, it seems as if the run helps the bike more than the bike helps the run. In the last year I’ve run two marathons where I took 18 weeks of just to prepare for the marathon. Coming back to biking after the marathons I’ve found I haven’t lost much as all on the bike.
The opposite definitely isn’t true. When I’ve come back to running after only biking for weeks my running has definitely suffered…
I come from a biking background and that has always been my strength so that may come into play here.
I’m sure others will have lots of data saying that it doesn’t help, but in my experience it does.
For me at least, it seems as if the run helps the bike more than the bike helps the run. In the last year I’ve run two marathons where I took 18 weeks of just to prepare for the marathon. Coming back to biking after the marathons I’ve found I haven’t lost much as all on the bike.
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Not having lost much is a good bit different than having improved;)
Hugh
Not having lost much is a good bit different than having improved;)
Hugh
Fair enough. I guess my point was there seems to be carry over.
Sorry to hear that. Can I get the books at Physfarm?
I have been doing a run focus after IM Florida in November. running is going great. Went out to do some climbing on the bike with friends a couple of weeks ago and got my legs ripped off. So for me, No it does not carry over. The only way I can improve my biking is to bike.
Sorry to hear that. Can I get the books at Physfarm?
Yes and any of them would be nice additions to one’s library.
Hugh
What I don’t understand would fill a library…but…improved running through training reults in increased mitochondrial density and efficiency (right so far?). The main muscles used in running and biking are the same (right again?). I just don’t understand how a muscle that has improved its ability to do work, loses that ability when the motion is more circular 
Depends on your starting point. If you are a beginner cyclist, then becoming a better runner will carry over to the bike because the basic fitness helps on the bike. If you are already a good cyclist, there will be little carryover. You’d need bike-specific work to get much better.
Could be due to a variety of unkown variables, but I know my run RPE decreases and overall speed increases when I’m cycling a bunch. Maybe cycling has an effect on running economy for me because of the higher cadence or something? Maybe I am increasing my pain threshold? Am I HTFU?
Depends on your starting point. If you are a beginner cyclist, then becoming a better runner will carry over to the bike because the basic fitness helps on the bike. If you are already a good cyclist, there will be little carryover. You’d need bike-specific work to get much better.
that seems about right.
to state otherwise, if you dont have a good base for running (i.e., if you cant run your goal distance without gasping for air) some cycling could help you with that goal. However, once you really want to build on your base fitness and excel at the run, you need to, well, RUN!
same with the other way around.
I think there can be crossover between sports, but more in the sense that becoming accustomed to much harder workouts in one discipline can change your brain’s wiring to not be afraid to do it in one of the other disciplines. Same thing happens to many folks when they first get a power meter. They get to see in plain numbers, that they weren’t working very hard before. Doesn’t mean they weren’t capable of it, they just didn’t have a feel for what it really meant.
This is what I think is happening when someone says they got better at triathlon after adding (pick one) CF, TRX, P90X, whatever. When I see this, what comes to my mind is that the person wasn’t working that hard at SBR, but they “learned” how to push themselves by experimenting with something else.
I tend to do the high intensity biking and running early in my training season, and I can say that getting used to the suck in one carries over to the other.
Depends on your starting point. If you are a beginner cyclist, then becoming a better runner will carry over to the bike because the basic fitness helps on the bike. If you are already a good cyclist, there will be little carryover. You’d need bike-specific work to get much better.
My N=1 says that taking winter off and running is no different then trying to ride through it or use a trainer. I do it every year. I ride with the A/Open group from early spring to late fall, then put the bike away and run about 50 miles a week with 3 days of swimming until the next spring. I find that I can jump right back in the group and do just fine. I don’t get any better, I actually lose bike fitness, but I stay equal to the guys that either rode easy during the winter when they could or the ones that use a trainer.
I realize that isn’t the actual question, but I’m guessing that is what the OP had in mind.
Well it’s sort of a complicated issue. Is there some degree of fitness transferred - sure. It’s not like you’re just sitting on the couch. It’s just that it can’t help your cycling more than cycling - meaning it’s better than nothing but not better than cycling.
A big reason why it’s not transferrable directly is that running requires eccentric muscle contractions, as opposed to concentric in cycling. It’s possible that the increased capilarization, mitochondrial density, and fatigue resistence carry over to a some extent. Your whole aerobic engine, so to speak, is transferrable/applicable, but it’s not better nor truly a substitute due simply to specificity. If you take 3 months off of cycling and run, and come back to cycling, you’re going to be better off than if you sat on the couch for those three months. But don’t make the mistake that just because you brought your threshold pace on the run from 6:00 to 5:50, that you’re FTP is going to increase from 200 to 220 watts. Your FTP will have dropped after those 3 months - likely less than if you did nothing - but that’s hard to say. A study that measured that would likely be impossible to do, as reversibility (how quickly you lose fitness) varies immensely by individual and also by how long/hard the individual had trained before the lay-off period.
They actually have done some excellent studies where they pretested bike and run fitness, then trained the group for one or the other for 6 weeks or so and then retested. Not surprisingly endurance in the sport they trained for improved very significantly but their endurance for the other didn’t improve at all.
Hugh
They actually have done some excellent studies where they pretested bike and run fitness, then trained the group for one or the other for 6 weeks or so and then retested. Not surprisingly endurance in the sport they trained for improved very significantly but their endurance for the other didn’t improve at all.
Hugh
Is there a study that tested if cross-training the other sport improved performance, i.e. if you’re already running and you add cycling, would running fitness improve, or if you’re already cycling and add running would cycling improve?
They actually have done some excellent studies where they pretested bike and run fitness, then trained the group for one or the other for 6 weeks or so and then retested. Not surprisingly endurance in the sport they trained for improved very significantly but their endurance for the other didn’t improve at all.
Hugh
Is there a study that tested if cross-training the other sport improved performance, i.e. if you’re already running and you add cycling, would running fitness improve, or if you’re already cycling and add running would cycling improve?
I suspect it would depend on the level of the athlete. A beginner or even competetive age grouper it will probably help as you’re increasing general fitness. For an elite runner or cyclist, it would probably hurt them as they’re essentially already at the maximum workload they can handle.
Does anyone have any studies or literature that looks at the relationship between the run & bike? Specifically if a lot of running work over months is done that results in improved LT on the run, does it have a direct relationship to the LT or FTP on the bike.
I used to be a bike racer and could do 275W for an hour (at around 130-135lbs). At that time, I could perhaps run a single mile at 6:30 pace. Now I can run a marathon at 6:30 pace and I cannot do more than approx 220W for an hour (at around 120-125lbs). You won’t be surprised to find out that I pretty much don’t ride my bike anymore. I’d guess that, despite my relatively higher fitness level (my own impression), that it would take 6-9months of dedicated work to reach my previous peaks in cycling. Frankly, I doubt it would be that much longer if I was out of shape and hadn’t been running (as long as I hadn’t gained a lot of weight). So for me, the answer to your question is no.