Another TUFO experiment - Race comparison (with READABLE data)

Triathlon Forum
1

Let’s trying the MF’ing thing again and see if it passes the smell test…

As I was saying my wife and I had the good fortune to race two Olympic distance tri’s in our area 1 week apart. I was 6th OA in both races and my wife was 3rd/4th (2 minute penalty for forgetting to take off her helmet, then placing it in transition, but not next to her bike dropped her to 4th), and 5th OA. It just happens 7 of the top 9 guys from the first race raced both races and 4 of the top 5 ladies raced both. That gives me a nice little data set to do an experiment.

So here’s what we did:

1st race bike set up:

ME - Renn disk with Tufo S3 lite, 21mm, 404 front, Tufo Jet Pro, 19mm

WIFE - 440 F&R, same tires as me

2nd race bike set up:

ME - Xero Lites (approx. 30mm) aluminum with Michelin Pro Race front & Michelin Dyanamic (about a $20 clincher) rear. Slightly heavier than the Circuits.

Wife - Velomax Circuits (approx. 28mm) aluminum with Michelin Pro F&R. Almost identical weight as the 440’s.

So I then compared the bike splits and overal times from both races and here’s what I got:

RACER BIKE d Race 1 BIKE d Race 2 Improvement OA d Race 1 OA d Race 2 Improvement

A… 0:48… 0:14… 0:34… 10:20… 12:47… 2:27

B… 0:54… 0:17… 0:37… 3:38… 4:24… 0:46

C… 2:18… 0:54… 3:12… 2:24… 0:43… 1:41

D… 2:58… 0:23… 2:35… 3:34… 8:08… 11:42

ME… 0:00… 0:00…0:00… 0:00

E… 3:16… 0:16… 3:00… 0:30… 1:50… 1:20

F… 2:15… 0:08… 2:07… 1:40… 2:50… 1:10

…AVG 2:01

AF… 4:37… 1:35… 3:02… 1:28… 0:22… 1:06

WIFE. 0:00… 0:00… 0:00

BF… 2:04… 0:36… 2:40… 1:13… 4:44… 3:31

CF… 1:03… 1:03… 0:00… 4:33… 6:31… 1:58

What does it say? It says our bikes time improved in the 2nd race against 8 of the 9 competitors and the 9th was no change (6 of 9 improved by more than 2 minutes). Our overal times improved against 7 of 9 (with all 7 being more than 1 minute).

If interested I can post more about the race conditions and what I thought of my efforts, plus I will post a very interesting observation on the bike during the 2nd race. Let me fire this off first before I lose it again.

I also did a rolldown test with all 4 wheelsets and if you’ve been following the experiements the results were exactly what you’d expect.

Comments?

2

how about a one sentence summary of your latest test…

3

Shit! Now the table if farked. Well you can read the summary while I screw with it.

4

Whatever! Basically the 3rd column and 6th column show the time improvement against competitors in race 2 versus race 1.

5

Hey Justin,

The thing I still struggle with in this Tufo vs The World test is it misses our friends ceteris and paribus. Shouldn’t we be using the same wheel, bike, et al and swapping tires only (of equal tire width as well)? For instance, I have clincher 404’s (heresy, I know), so if I test my Tufo clincher/tubies and then swap and test my ProRace2’s, then I have a valid test. With the different wheels, I lose my control factors, no? Or are you saying that since the 2nd test with Michelins was on a wheelset that is obviously slower, yet you both rode faster, that the evidence is conclusive without controlling for different equipment? A lot of this has been Tufo tubies vs. Michelin (or other) clincher, but with two very different wheelsets. Misses some scientific rigor.

Ted

6

The local crit series recently started and I opted to race the first two races using my Am Class 58mm carbon wheels that sports Tufo S3 lites mounted with Tufo Extreme Tubular rim tape (less than 250 miles on them). Although various factors have interfered with spring training resulting in a decrease in ride volumn and intensity, the training regimen is similar to that used last year. Thus far, using Tufo’s I have spent the majority of the races suffering while trying to figure out the reason for my HR being 5-10 beats higher than normal for that tempo (race tempo avg. 28 mph for 70-minutes).

Well I am going to see if their is any justification to all of these Tufo threads as I purchased Velomax Corsa clinchers to replace the Tufo C-Elit Jet tubular clinchers mounted on my TT bikes race wheels (Spinergy Stealth SS/Renn Disc) on the TT bike as well as a set of Veloflex Carbon tubulars for my Am Class race wheels. Initially I had planned on gluing the tubulars with Vitoria Mastik One but after wrangling with the wheels for nearly 15-minutes trying to remove the less than 1-year old Tufo S-3 Lite tubulars off each wheel, I opted to again use Tufo’s Extreme Tubular tape to mount the Veloflex Carbons (I did scrape some of the latex coating off the base tape of the Veloflex tubulars). Let me say that other than high speed mountain descents where breaking on the carbon rim surface might adversely effect the bond of the tubular glue tape, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that Tufo’s Extreme glue tape does not do a more than adequate job!

Tommorow evening is the cycling clubs monthly 10k time trial and the wife will be riding the carbon race wheels with Veloflex tubulars while I will get to put the Veloflex Corsa clinchers to the test. Wednesday night I will again line up for the criterium where I will then get to try out the Veloflex tubulars and although obviously not very scientific due to the variety of factors beyond my control, I will get immediate feedback as to whether or not the Tufo’s had impacted race performance in weeks previous!

7

I did my first race on non-tufo tubulars the past weekend. No definitive “speed” results, since the course was a new course for me, but the comfort factor change was HUGE. I had been racing Tufo Elite Jets, which felt “harsh” (@ 135psi). At the same pressure, the Vittoria Corsa CX’s felt smooth and comfy. What I always thought was the “harsh ride” of carbon wheels turned out to be tires. Riding the Vittoria’s makes my Stingers feel like “normal” wheels. The difference is night and day between the feel of the tires…

8

Good stuff and yet another data point. Now we get to hear about all the variables you aren’t controlling for ;-).

What was the interesting observation during the second race?

ot

9

Ted,

Since the goal is to improve race times, it really doesn’t matter whether it is the wheels or the tires. All the matters is which wheel/combo is faster, even if I was faster because I “thought” I should be. Faster is faster regardless of how you get there.

I think there are enough tests out with certainly more rigour than the TUFO tests to conclude that aero wheels are faster than non-aero, but it seems pretty obvious that the choice of tire overshadows the choice of wheel.

Something I observed on the bike in the 2nd race was really interesting. The first 18 miles of the course were on fairly good smooth roads. As expected 4 (C, D, E, and F) guys that got out of the water just behind me passed me on the bike during this time. At 18 miles the course got really crummy. Lots of patches and a rougher surface. All 4 of the other guys were riding either disks or 404’s with tubulars. When we hit that section I was very close to 2 and about 100 yards behind the other 2. It was like they threw on their brakes. For a few seconds I started coasting trying to stay 4-5 bike lengths behind the guy who posted the fastest bike split in the first race. It quickly became obvious that I could go much faster, so I passed the first 2, caught the 2nd 2 quickly and just kept putting time into all 4 over the next few miles. All of these guys had faster splits than me the previous week and were faster up to the 18 mile point this week (although less so than the previous week). For me the last few miles felt easier than the previous week even though I was putting time in instead of losing time.

10

I agree there are a lot of uncontrolled variables in all of theses experiments (4 of them I believe). Yet it seems to me those demanding rigour should also be the first one’s to recognize that statistically the odds of Tufo’s losing out to other tires every time is becoming very unlikely.

See the interesting observation just above.

One other thing I forgot to mention. In the 2nd race, my wife dropped her chain TWICE and had to stop to put the chain back on. She figures she lost between 30 and 60 seconds there (rubbing a little more salt in the TUFO wound). As chief mechanic I’m in the dog house!

11

I think the tape is fine. Problem is changing a flat if you get one is really a pain in the ass with the tape. Tape is easier to mount, for sure, but changing a tire mounted with the tape is not.

12

I agree there are a lot of uncontrolled variables in all of theses experiments (4 of them I believe). Yet it seems to me those demanding rigour should also be the first one’s to recognize that statistically the odds of Tufo’s losing out to other tires every time is becoming very unlikely.

Perhaps, but then again there are still people waiting for proof of evolution or electricity ;-).

I want tufo to write a letter to all the races I did in 2004 and ask them to subtract a reasonable amount of time from each bike split…

ot

13

Well, the $320 question is: Do I buy 4 Vittoria Corsa KS tubulars (or similar) and hope those tires combined with my race wheels will be faster than my training wheels, or do I spend the $320 on other bike goodies (of which the wish list is quite long right now). Given the variability in tires, I’d sure like to quantify the advantage of aero wheels. What if it is only 30 seconds for an Oly?

14

Or order your 4 tires and still have $100+ left for other goodies from www.sdeals.com. Sure it’s grey market, but we’re talking tires, not bikes. So far, I’ve had good luck with him, although he did recommend Tufos… grrr.

Do you really want 2 sets of race wheels that do nothing but collect dust?

I swapped from Tufo S3 lite 215s to the Zipp tire, and my race wheels (404 front, H3D rear) went from being slower than my training wheels (Mavic Ksyriums) to faster. The Zipp & the Vittoria are very similar. (sdeals doesn’t carry Zipp).

15

Yeah, and I want a note from you stating that I was the only guy to pass you at Auburn, riding Tufo Tubulars and a disk wheel :wink:

You’re lucky I wasn’t racing Vittoria Corsa CX’s because you wouldn’t have seen me pass you…HAHAHHAHAHAH

Mike
.

16

Yeah yeah. Yuck it up. I expected lotsa you whippersnappers to fly on by my near-200lbs on those hills. :wink:

I also would have ridden my disk cover (small addition to above mentioned lbs) but I noticed it rubbed a bit in the lowest gear and I spent a LOT of time in that gear and I didn’t want to damage the cover. Can’t tell you how happy I was with that ride tho…274 normalized watts (245av) absolutely blows away anything I’ve done at that distance before :).

But I’m willing to bet that your tires cost you at least 5 minutes…

ot