Another poll

Triathlon Forum
21

Hmmm, a supreme being? OK, well- here’s my slant. HAving read tritoronto’s post on this thread, as well as the others, there is some very interesting commentary. Also, this entire thread is thought provoking. I’m enjoying it.

tritoronto points, accurately too I believe, to the origin of religion(s). Going back into the chronology of mankind a need arose for answers as our thinking became more complex and societies became more sophisticated. More answers were needed and they needed to be more finite. Clearly, a “book of rules” needed to be crafted. Different geographic regions gave birth to their own variety- many with interesting and logical similarities.

Now, many people grasp firmly to the highly ritualized beliefs ascribed to a specific belief system. They “believe” it so firmly, so strongly, it transcends belief and becomes their reality. It is a very tangible reality that directly influences many, if not every, decision they make thus directly affecting their behavior thus causing what they believe to become tangible in the form of that behavior.

So it is real to them.

Here’s where I take a left turn on all of it. The first time I travelled the world it was as a soldier. I learned that wars fought over money, land, politics are usually resolvable. Wars fought over religion are completely unresolvable. Some religions, or a self-serving perversion of them, make provisions for the justification of murder and all manner of wanton disregard for human life simply to defend the “God given” set of beliefs the assailant is divinely mandated to defend and propogate. If he/she dies, a place in heaven is guaranteed. Several religions feature some version of this belief system.

These people are anti-societal and dangerous. Often, the fervor of their beliefs creates an inability or unwillingness to acknowledge the validity of any other belief system. They cannot co-exist. In fact, it is a part of their dogma to convert others to their “way”. If they cannot be converted, they may be tolerated. If they cannot be tolerated, “God” mandates they be eliminated for betterment of all.

Nearly every religion has, at one point or another throughout history, to a greater or lesser degree, been subject to this mindset.

My contention is “organized”, ritualized religion does bring people together and provide a workable “moral compass” for some, but the walls of this structure also form a barrier of understanding from others. Therein lies the problem. It is a philosophy that recognizes more differences than similarities. It can become polarized and confrontational- as will be the replies to this post if anyone bothers to read this far.

Now, let us suppose for a moment, that God is the natural order of things. Commanding all we understand and do not understand from an utterly detached position and bestowing upon us the tools with which to manage our life from the moment of birth forward.

While this concept of God is somewhat less structured than a highly defined, ritualized belief system that includes a document like The Bible, The Koran, or the Tao de Ching- it is also lacking the attendant distinctions. And the attendant conflicts. It still respects God as the “Supreme Being”, although acknowledging that God is far above a mere being- in fact, something much larger that pervades everything and everybody- living or inanimate.

And finally, in his book “The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are” Alan Watts proposes a concept of “pantheism” where, as I understand it (admittedly rudimentary) God is in all of us, therefore we must treat each others as Gods, the earth as a God, ourselves as a God or piece of God.

Given this belief system suddenly the world is a wonderous place, filled with opportunity and benevolence. Free from distinction and segregation. Race, religion, indeed, even species are erased. We are truly all one- interdependant. Our armies are converted from organizations trained to kill and destroy to organizations trained to build and educate and help. Borders vanish, and, just as there really is no “day” and “night” since it is always daytime somewhere and nighttime somewhere else, we all revel in our similarities- not our distinctions- all in God’s glory. Quite fantastic (and fanciful) vision.

That’s kinda how I see it.

22

Triathlon…swim…bike…run…in case everyone forgot. This issue (and other non tri issues) only serve to fuel the fire of people who say “This forum is beginning to suck”… It’s not in IMO but it would be nice if we stuck to the topic.

23

As I stated and described in the Who is a Christian poll, I am an atheist. I think it works for some people. Personally, I’d need some serious proof, like God appearing in the flesh performing amazing miracles in front of my eyes.

I enjoyed reading parts of the bible, but to me it is like reading Greek, Norse, or Egyptian mythology. I love all of that stuff. It is facinating to read how diferent cultures seek to explain the intricacies of life.

Maybe I’m an an agnostic, as I don’t completely rule out the possibility, though I do doubt it. At any rate if there is a supreme being out there I don’t think it’s anything like what is described in the Bible or the Koran, etc…

24

I know this doesn’t answer the original question, but…

My gripe with Christianity is the whole Christ bit. My mom and I argue over this all the time. The general premise of Christianity, as I understand it, is: you can lead a good life, treat others well, golden rule kind of thing, and essentially, follow the ten commandments, BUT…if you don’t believe that Christ died for your sins, you are going to hell.

I can’t say I’m an atheist - probably more of an agnostic - but Christianity makes me bristle because of this one thing. The general teachings, I agree with.

That said - I have a huge respect for anyone who CAN take that leap of faith, and I am not saying this to be negative about anyone’s choices or beliefs. It’s just a leap of faith I have never been able to take…that this one story is what makes or breaks your afterlife, if there is one.

sheri

25

First off i’m jewish, but I don’t really believe in any god. I do believe some magnificiants things happened thru out history (like the flood maybe), but the whole creation theory - gemme a break. The world created 5000 years ago? blah. Have some common sense people.

I tried to restain myself but I just can’t…

Obviously, if there is no God, there can be no Creation.

So, to explain the origin of the universe, the Earth, and life we have the Big Bang and evolution. The theory here is that some random event, without cause created the universe out of nothing. Or if there was something before, some (again random) event caused that to explode and our solar system and our planetary system was formed out of the chaos.

So now, you have Earth full of gases, chemicals, and stuff. Again, through time, chance, and random processes some elements get together and turn into a living thing. Over time that living thing evolves and becomes more complex all through time, chance and random processes. This is the theory of evolution and everyone with a scientific mind and any common sense must accept the proof that this is how it all happened. You can prove that this is the case.

We can dispell this theory quite simply. You don’t even have to look to the Bible for answers, science refutes this itself. Everything in the universe tends toward chaos. Try this simple experiment. Take red, white, and blue confetti and throw it into the air. It lands in a random patter that is not likely to repeat. Keep doing this over and over and over again. When does the confetti arrange itself into the shape of the American flag? The odds are astronomical that this could ever happen. Now consider how much evolution, through time, chance and random processes it would take to go from a single cell, simple organism into a modern human being. You’d be more likely to arrange the confetti into the shape of the flag thousands of times.

It doesn’t take much “common sense” to see that this is completely ridiculous. (And, yes, I went to public school where evolution is taught as “fact”, complete with transitional forms, ape-man, and fish that turn into birds.)

Evolution: fast forward to where we evolved from primates. The idea is that we are so similar in every way that we MUST have evolved to better adapt to our environment. OK, let’s say you build a bridge. It works well and gets you where you need to go. You look at it, and “it is good”. Now you want to build another bridge. You certainly wouldn’t abandon everything from the first design but you would likely incorporate what you learned before into your new design. So your new bridge looks a great deal like the other one only with some improvements.

Now, which seems more likely? We evolved from simple, single cell organisms that appeared out of nothing or we are the product of intelligent design of a Creator who is above all that is created (everything).

Sure, all of this is just theory and it can never really be proven because the only real proof would require either someone to have been there to witness it or for it to happen again, repeatedly.

You say it takes a lot of faith to believe in God. Ok, granted. How much faith does it take to believe in evolution?

The biggest reason people don’t want to believe in creation is because they don’t want to be accountable to the Creator. If there is a Creator (God) than you can’t just do whatever you want.

26

I actually agree with part of this post. But not all of it. I agree that many terrible things have been done in the name of God. I also acknowledge that these kinds of conflicts are very difficult to resolve – to the point that many of them don’t get resolved. As a soldier, you have seen this in a much more personal way than others have.

But I don’t think that negates the fact that there is a God out there. When it comes to Christianity, I view it differently than I do other religions. I firmly believe that Christianity is much different than other religions. One way, of course, is the empty tomb. All the leaders of other religions are dead, and you can visit their burial places. Not so with Jesus’ tomb. There are two places that are regarded as the tomb in which Jesus was buried, and both are empty. You can try to argue that maybe the disciples took Jesus’ body and buried it in a secret tomb somewhere near Jerusalem, and there His bones rest today. But remember that the Romans had several of their best guards on duty that night at the tomb, and the fact that a group of 12 commoners could overcome a contingent of Roman soldiers, roll away the stone in front of the tomb, and get away with the body is preposterous. Also, several hundred people (I can’t remember the exact number off the top of my head) attest to the fact that they saw Jesus after he was crucified (again, this was written down just a few years after He ascended, too soon for legends to have diluted the story). So the fact that Jesus’ tomb is empty is important.

Probably more striking to me is that all other religions are man’s attempt to make himself pleasing in the eyes of God through living a good life, doing good works, etc., something that no man can obtain. Christianity is God taking action to do something for man that he cannot do for himself. Christianity is God reaching down to man, not man reaching up to God. That is very important because is shows the lengths to which God was willing to go to re-establish a relationship with man. God sent His son to die for man, knowing full well that all men would not accept this sacrifice. God is not an overbearing supreme being standing over mankind and exercising judgment left and right, delighting in sending sinners to hell. The God of the Bible is a loving God willing to go to great lengths to have a relationship with man.

Once again, Mr. Demerly, you cannot look at people and formulate your opinions about God. You have to look to God Himself, and then you will see what it’s all about. The God of the New Testament is not a God of war and bloodshed. He is a God of love and reconciliation. That is very, very important.

You certainly have a different perspective on all this given your travels and your time in the military. But your experiences should not cheapen your view of God.

RP

27

“My gripe with Christianity is the whole Christ bit. My mom and I argue over this all the time. The general premise of Christianity, as I understand it, is: you can lead a good life, treat others well, golden rule kind of thing, and essentially, follow the ten commandments, BUT…if you don’t believe that Christ died for your sins, you are going to hell.”

That’s kind of the way it is. You certainly have to believe in Christ, but there’s a reason why. It’s not an arbitrary rule that God established just for the sake of making rules. If you have a gripe with it, I would urge you to investigate it more closely and try to understand why belief in Christ is necessary. It actually makes quite a bit of sense. The claims of Christ stand up to scrutiny.

RP

28

Yes, I do believe in God and the empty tomb and that God sent His only Son down to mankind. My belief comes from faith. My faith is something that nobody can take away. Yes, some bad choices have been made in the name of Christianity. Some of the Priests have made terrible choices in the Catholic Church. They are human too, and do have their own choices to make.s My faith is in God and Him only. My faith will carry me to my death and when that time comes, I will have to answer for my doings on earth. And then if someone tells me that there is no God, I will still have the faith that God will take care of me.

29

As usual in religious debates some people simply cannot accept that other people do not share the same beliefs. Why is it so difficult to accept that some people have no belief in a god and just let it go at that? I can’t imagine going around trying to make other people believe as I do. What is the purpose of continually inundating a forum such as this with religious debates that generally serve only to divide? Most of us have a desire to become better triathletes, runners, cyclists, and/or swimmers. Why can’t we just focus on that?

Don

30

Now, which seems more likely? We evolved from simple, single cell organisms that appeared out of nothing this one-though I would put it a different way or we are the product of intelligent design of a Creator who is above all that is created (everything).

The biggest reason people don’t want to believe in creation is because they don’t want to be accountable to the Creator. Not true at all. the reason people don’t believe is because they see no proof. Instead, what we’ve seen over several thousand years is millions of people with completely different visions of what the creator or creators are, killing each other because they can’t agree on what or who the creator or creators are. If there is a Creator (God) than you can’t just do whatever you want. Says who? Who says that even if there is a god or gods that they even want us to follow some set of rules they’ve laid down? I’ve often wondered that even if there was some kind of god, would it want us praying to it and worshiping it all the time? Yes, I know because the Bible, the Koran, the Iliad or whatever book you choose to believe says so. But how come everyone is so sure that the book they’ve chosen is the right one? The major reason people believe the book they believe is simple geography.

31

Hi Robert, and thank you for your thoughtful reply. I hope you don’t regard my views on God as somehow discounted or “cheapened”.

To me, they are immensly sacred and holy. I hold my vision of God, the natural order of things, in great and solemn reverance. I depend on it as a compass. When bad things happen, I look to God as the power, force and order that eventually rights the wrong. I have seen this on a personal level, and on a global level. Evil exists no doubt, a sad part of our existence. It is always vanquished by good. That is the natural order- the work of God.

I have read the Bible as a laymen with great interest. In particular, the scene you describe has always been of interest to me, as with the scenes at the Tower of Babble, Moses and the Ten Commandments, parting of the Red Sea to reach the Promised Land, Noah’s Ark, etc.

I do not know if these events occured. I just do not know. Archeology supports some version of many of them, most in fact. I believe a benevolent man named Jesus Christ once lived in the flesh. I believe his influence was vast and powerful, and has become more powerful with time (thankfully). The rest, well, my name is Thomas… the doubter, or at least- the questioner.

My father was a religious zealot who attempted to murder our family and was remanded to a mental hospital. He mandated that my religious education include caticism (however you spell it- sorry). I was expelled from caticism becasue of a project I did comparing the viability of Noah’s Ark to the nuclear aircraft carrier U.S.S. Enterprise, CVA(N)-65. In my project I noted that Noah’s Ark was a fable meant to illustrate a point. That in fact no vessel, not even the Enterprise, could house even all the species of insects- let alone mammals, reptiles and amphibians. The nuns seized my carefully prepared scale drawing depicting a comparison of size between the two vessels, phoned my mother to pick me up, and ejected me permanently from the premisis saying, and I remember it clearly, “He thinks too much.”

That only caused me to think more. What were they so afraid of? It should be pointed out that I was a habitual heathen- having been already apprehended for kissing a girl in the girl’s bathroom and demonstrating to the class that jumping from a second floor window would result in no ill effects- by doing it from the classroom window.

The Noah’s Ark/U.S.S. Enterprise expose’ was my third strike. Flashbacks from that episode are probably why I have shelved the Campy/Shimano article for now. It is probably only a function of poor Church logistics that an Exorcist didn’t visit my house soon after my forced exhile, and compell me to vomit pea soup and rotate my head uncomfortably at improbable angles.

On a more serious note (and not to make light of your reply), In the Voodoo religion of Haiti and the Dominican Republic I seem to recall there is a (now forbidden) ritual that includes “bringing back the dead” who have been “killed” using a powerful narcotic that induces a death-like physiological state. It is popularly refered to as “zombification” and the substance is sometimes termed “Haitian zombie powder”. This is a powerful ritual that, among its practitioners, is proof of resurection.

I often wonder about that and the story of Christ. I wonder- any connection? I wonder. I just don’t know.

32

I actually enjoy these kinds of discussions. Being able to discuss different beliefs need not turn into flaming rhetoric that divides the forum. I can understand why people who have had negative experiences with organized religion have a hard time accepting the beliefs of that religion, whether it be Christianity or some other religion. However, and this goes back to something I wrote in an earlier post, you can’t judge Christianity by looking at those kinds of people. They don’t embody what Christianity is. I myself have a problem with many aspects of organized religion. It’s not always what it’s cracked up to be. That being said, I belong to a church, and even serve that church as youth director. But you have to do things for God and Christ, not necessarily for the church. Those two entities should be one in the same, but unfortunately, many times they are not. Not all churches are out for the best interests of the faith, and it takes discernment to figure that out. That comes from knowing what you believe and why you believe it.

About Noah’s ark, there is some fascinating information about the size of the ark and the kinds of animals that were included on the ark. The ark was indeed huge – incredibly huge. Unfortunately, I’m not at home right now and don’t have that information at my fingertips.

Concerning the zombie-ization of Christ: This has been suggested many times before, but it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. The Bible tells us that the Roman soldiers thrust a spear in Jesus’ side. Out of that wound came blood and water, which according to medical experts that have reviewed the nature of crucifixions, is consistent with the cause of death from crucifixion. Jesus was in fact dead when He was taken down from the cross. Even if He was zombie-ized, how would he have gotten out of the tomb with such a heavy stone blocking the entrance and fully armed Roman soldiers at the door? Couldn’t have happened.

One other thing: I hope I didn’t insult your beliefs by using the word “cheapen” – that was a poor choice of words on my part.

RP

33

No worries my friend.

A question for you: I seem to remember some specific situtaion surrounding the Romans guarding the Tomb. They were memebers of elite Pretorian Guard unit? I seem to recall that. Also, weren’t they somehow rendered unconcious but later revived or regained concisousness? I seem to recall some situtation where they survived the ordeal and were amazed by it themselves. Is my recollection accurate? It has been a long time since I opened a bible.

34

Everyone’s in bed, so I decided to get a “quick fix”. I must say this thread is amazing … content aside. Do people realize what is happening here?

Folks would be well-advised to go to page one of this thread … read all of the posts … and they should notice something.

A very hot topic is being discussed in a very polite and courteous manner, with no flames and understanding.

This thread is unique in the regard that in the end, it’s not likely that anyone will have “switched sides”, but thought has been activated by both sides.

I’m impressed fellas. The only way this thread is better is if we’re all eating a 1.5-lb porterhouse and drinking the beverage of your choice.

35

“The claims of Christ stand up to scrutiny.”

How do you mean?

36

I am an atheist. I had a conservative religious upbringing (my father is a Baptist minister). In my late 20’s, I wanted to strengthen my Xtian apologetic, so I tried to marry theology and science. After 3 years of trying to bolster my theology with scientific evidence, I found my theology sorely lacking in any sense of logic and established fact. I’m utterly embarrassed that I used to be a ‘believer’. However, I am sympathetic with those who hold religious beliefs. It’s a comforting (and therefore enticing) worldview.

37

“We can dispell this theory quite simply. You don’t even have to look to the Bible for answers, science refutes this itself. Everything in the universe tends toward chaos. Try this simple experiment. Take red, white, and blue confetti and throw it into the air. It lands in a random patter that is not likely to repeat. Keep doing this over and over and over again. When does the confetti arrange itself into the shape of the American flag? The odds are astronomical that this could ever happen. Now consider how much evolution, through time, chance and random processes it would take to go from a single cell, simple organism into a modern human being. You’d be more likely to arrange the confetti into the shape of the flag thousands of times”

I have heard this argument several times and I find it interesting, not compelling, but interesting. My response is this: (hope I can put it into something that makes some sort of sense) Let’s consider the odds of me sitting here with my wife reading this thread. Actually let’s just consider the odds of me being married to my wife. I met my wife in Madison, WI a college town of about 200,000. Now I realize that not all of those people would have been in my dating pool, but just for the sake of the argument, let’s say the odds of us meeting are 1/200,000. In order for us to meet and get married we first had to be born. My father met my mother in Seoul, Korea not sure what the population was then, it’s now about 12,000,00 so let’s say it was half that 6,000,000. My wife’s parents met in Los Angeles, again multi-million population. So with just that we have a 1/200,000 chance multiplied by 1/6,000,000 multiplied by 1/whatever the population of LA was in the late 60’s. So you can see that the odds are becoming seriously stacked against us. We can continue to extrapolate this back generation after generation and we see that the odds that we would meet, fall in love and get married are just as astronomical.

It makes sense to me, my wife seems to agree (another atheist triathlete). I have never been completely convinced of the Big Bang Theory. I don’t pretend to know how the universe came to be. I do believe in evolution, when I look back through the archeological evidence and fossil records it just makes sense to me.

That reminds me of another question for you bible scholars out there (which I certainly am not): We have pretty convincing evidence in the way of fossils that dinosaurs and prehistoric humans once roamed the earth. Why is there no mention of these creatures in the old testament? Why didn’t they make it onto the ark? I’ve always wondered that.

38

I’m an atheist.

I was raised a Catholic and from my teens on I used to butt heads with my Dad who is a very devout Catholic. I refused to go to Mass and he said that I had to go to Mass until I could give him a valid reason why I shouldn’t. That reason boiled down to this:

‘People believe in a God because they are told that God exists and they can’t prove that he does not exist. I have been told that God exists, but I can’t prove that he does, so I will not belive in him’

Now, that’s the argument reduced to it’s basic form. I’ve thought quite a lot about it before I came to my decision. Science isn’t perfect, and it can’t explain everything. However, what it can explain it explains well, and those explanations can be tested and built upon.

Religion doesn’t explain everything, and again, it isn’t perfect. But it also doesn’t offer anything concrete that can be tested, and in the past it has been proven wrong by science on many occasions, from Galileo on.

I happen to believe that humans need religion as a crutch. Something to support them because they can’t grasp the concept that in the grand scheme of things, we really are pretty insignificant. It’s that simple. Religion provides comfort to the masses, no more and no less.

39

Now, which seems more likely? We evolved from simple, single cell organisms that appeared out of nothing this one-though I would put it a different way

OK, how would you put it?

The biggest reason people don’t want to believe in creation is because they don’t want to be accountable to the Creator. Not true at all. the reason people don’t believe is because they see no proof. Instead, what we’ve seen over several thousand years is millions of people with completely different visions of what the creator or creators are, killing each other because they can’t agree on what or who the creator or creators are.

You see no proof? Have a look at the structure of the human eye. Or the brain. We can’t even comprehend the complexity of these structures of our own bodies. Can one reasonable believe that our complex brain evolved into what it is today? To me, it is nothing short of miraculous and clear proof that I am a created being. If I am created, I have a Creator.

It isn’t too hard for me to believe that God instilled in me some basic moral code. If that is the case, I must assume there is something I am to aspire to. If one takes this to be true, it isn’t difficult to conclude that I will be judged on how I succeeded in following that moral code. Salvation is another topic.

“I could never be a Christian because Christians kill people who wouldn’t convert during the Crusades.” This another common reason people cite for not being Christian. Have a look at Robert Preston’s post to Tom Demerly in this thread. These are actions of poeple. People who are clearly not “living as Christ would have lived.” Nowhere in the Bible does it say “Go convert people to follow Christ. The one’s who won’t convert, kill them.”

If there is a Creator (God) than you can’t just do whatever you want.

Says who? Who says that even if there is a god or gods that they even want us to follow some set of rules they’ve laid down? I’ve often wondered that even if there was some kind of god, would it want us praying to it and worshiping it all the time? Yes, I know because the Bible, the Koran, the Iliad or whatever book you choose to believe says so. But how come everyone is so sure that the book they’ve chosen is the right one? The major reason people believe the book they believe is simple geography.

The earthly metaphor for our relationship with God is like children to a Father. If you have kids, you want them to respect you and do what you say. You can’t make them respect or love you, but you try to give them the tools to survive in the world. Isn’t this how God is portrayed in the Bible?

Why do I believe the Bible to be true? Prove anything written in the Bible to be false. While not every event and place in the Bible has been proven, no archeological evidence has ever contradicted a Biblical account. The Bible makes some extraordinary claims all leading up to the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Bible is the only book to claim God would come to earth in the form of a man, live amoung us, die a horrible death and be resurrected. The empty tomb does if for me. As mentioned in Robert Preston’s post, all other figures of world religions are still dead.

  • Ken Velarde
40

As usual in religious debates some people simply cannot accept that other people do not share the same beliefs. Why is it so difficult to accept that some people have no belief in a god and just let it go at that? I can’t imagine going around trying to make other people believe as I do. What is the purpose of continually inundating a forum such as this with religious debates that generally serve only to divide? Most of us have a desire to become better triathletes, runners, cyclists, and/or swimmers. Why can’t we just focus on that?

Don

It comes down to what happens when you die. If there is no God and no eternity and we get buried, decompose, and become part of the circle of life, or whatever you call it, there is no reason for you to convince me of that.

However, if there is an eternity, and everyone is going to spend eternity somewhere, wouldn’t you want to spend it in Heaven rather than Hell? In the end, it makes no difference for my salvation whether you accept Christ as your Savior or not. There’s room for everyone – it’s not a zero sum game.

Look at it another way. Let’s say you’re using a dangerous drug that will eventually kill you. I meet you and say, “Hey, man, that stuff is killing you.” Your choice it to listen to me when I make a compelling argument, check it out for yourself, and ultimately the decision is yours. While it is not my responsibilty to try to prevent you from using this drug, it clearly is the right thing to do if I care about you and your well being. Salvation is a little different because of Matthew 28:19-20, The Great Commission. We are commanded to “make disciples of the world.”

  • Ken Velarde