My cynical response is that our government might not want a national service that fostered that kind of experience and understanding. It’s easier to (mis)lead the populace that way.
My cynical response is that our government might not want a national service that fostered that kind of experience and understanding. It’s easier to (mis)lead the populace that way.
I don’t follow? You are suggesting that our government wouldn’t want people to have a personal understanding of other countries or cultures? What is the benefit to the government?
Well, the military alone is one of the largest employers in the nation, and one of the largest employers of minorities in the nation. They are also one of the largest educators in the world.
It is also worth noting that 91% of the military personal (including the reserve population) is involved in a primary job that is support oriented, not combat oriented.
For every 1 combat soldier there are 11 support personnel.
So, perhaps more than any other U.S. or world institution, the U.S. military preaches a doctrine of globalization and diversity. Sure, there are some bad apples (Abu Gharib) and some very ugly things done that are contradictory to what the U.S. is all about (no due process at Guantanemo Bay), but those incidents are the exception, not the rule.
As a whole, when people return from military service they are better educated than when they entered it.
I had an education in the military I would have never, ever been able to obtain outside the Armed Forces: Languages, geography, diplomacy, survival, economics, emergency medicine- the list goes on and on. I was told my military educatio was worth over $350,000. they paid me to get it, then flew my ass all over the world to use it, then when I got hurt, paid me to recover. Then they hired me back to teach.
The money that opened this store is almost entirely from the US Military.
You may have recieved your tax forms by now. Flip the booklet over. See that pie chart on the back? See the huge slice of the pie for social programs? Now, look at the comparitively small slice for defense. You gotta wonder, where do we get more bang (literally and figuratively) for the buck: Welfare, social security or our Armed Forces?
When I was a kid I was so poor I had two pairs of pants and my bedroom wasn’t heated. It absolutely sucked. When my dad died we didn’t have the money to bury him. Social Security gave us $800 to help put him in the ground. Had it not been for the military I would not own my own business, house, car, have raced on all seven continents and had the experiences I’ve had- good and bad.
I’ll argue the Armed Forces is the best national service a person could ask for.
Tom, what are your thoughts on a mandatory military service (say 2 years like Israel). Do you think it would degrade the overall morale and skills of the military since it would not be all volunteer?
I did a six year stint as a nuclear power plant operator, I don’t know how much it cost to train me but I’m sure it was a hell of a lot.
Hmm, I think you’re right about a mandatory military service commitment de-grading the effectiveness of the current force structure. I agree with that.
Interestingly, and I don’t mean to sound like a broken record, Barnett’s book discusses the division of the current military into a “Leviathan Force”, the guys doing the warfighting, and a “System Administration” force that would handle transitional periods from combat to stbilization/sovereignty.
Perhaps a national mandatory service requirement could populate the System Administration force in a number of entirely non-combat capacities such as education, construction/rebuilding, environmentalism and conservation, relief work, medical services, economic recovry service, etc.
This would provide people who are adverse to military service an option while still serving their counter and the world in a constructive fashion.
It’s easier tp promote nationalism when its ‘us against them’. It’s easier to demonize and kill a people you don’t know. Its easier to dismiss a culture you don’t understand. Its way easier to fight a nameless, faceless enemy.
I’m being serious here, I am kinda lost on this: Is this too suggest that defence spending is somehow deflated in the tax return pie chart or that there is more spending than represented by conveniently “categorizing” it elsewhere?
Like I said, I’m hazy on the point here. Call me dense…
But, if this chart is an attempt to undermine the (my) argument that defence spending is a bargain then suggest we go ahead and back payrolls to the military out of this chart- since it is paid back to taxpayers- and then re-evaluate.
Again- I’m hazy on the point here. Give me the Reader’s Digest please…
I hear you, and you right.
But I will add this: If nationalism is patriotism, belief in what the country was founded on and what it stands for (or, in fairness, what my opinion is of what it stands for), then yeah, I count me in.
I’ve been there, done that- seen the worst and the best. From what I’ve seen , we are the best hing going by far. Doesn’t mean we are perfect, doesn’t mean there aren’t other fine countries. But it does mean I think our country is the best one and the best national agenda to subscribe to, believe in, advocate, and even spread around in the abscence of something else good.
And when the sovereignty and security of our country is willfully threatened, what we have here is worth fighting for. When the basic human rights of people anywhere are oppressed, it is our place as the most privleged nation to liberate them- sometimes through armed intervention as a last resort.
The U.S. makes tragic and terribly costly mistakes. There is no denying that, but it does dso in the pursuit of a greater good- and there is no endeavor without risk, no progress without setbacks. T have the courage to invest in a better, newer reality is to have the courage to risk failure, and our country does that.
Sometimes we do fail, but we fail in pursuit of an admirable goal- and in failure we are resolved to continue the work toward a better tomorrow. It requires resolve, endurance, rigor and resilience. Those are fixtures in our national character.
Our government is not an evil conspiracy or “old boy network” bent on conquest and empire. It is not. It is not a bunch of self-important Texas old boys running amoke around the world in search of cheap oil at the cost of U.S. and foreign lives. George Bush is not the idiotic figure Michael Moore would have you believe.
Our government is a huge organization of mostly fine people working tirelessly around the world on a Herculean task 24/7 never giving up, loooking toward a better tomorrow just as Francis Scott Key did when he penned our national anthem from a ship in harbor during war.
It is not this twisted, subversive, occult union of conspirators- the CIA is not this organization monitoring you and I under the Orwellian guise of the Patriot Act.
It is not that.
It is a system, falliable like all systems, trying to do good, mostly doing it, leading the world, and sometimes falling short- but always getting back up, dusting itself off, and moving forward.
So, that is why I am not cynical. Because I have seen the rest of the world at its best and its worst.
Nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there.
The Feds took $6K from my severance check a few weeks ago. I’m sure some of that money went to the Tsunami relief. However, if they could take the same money to buy a fuse for a Daisycutter (MOAB) and paint “Greetings from Mojozenmaster” on the side of the bomb, I would feel better about it.
I agree with you, that is the only way to fight a war, but it doesn’t diminish the fact that the middle east is a horribly backward place stuck some where between ancient history and today.
Holy shit, I’ve been gone from the Lavender Room for a while!
5280, replace “middle east” in your subject title with “jew” and you’re a textbook Nazi.
Have you been to the Middle East?
Or are you basing it on what you see and hear in the media about the Middle East?
(Not a flame just wondering what your experience is)
Ok… Dude, I will count to 10 and let you either take back the remark and apologize or we can trade insults all day. I am fine with hurling insults about you and your family all day if you want. I am nothing of the kind and I would just tell you that it is a really good thing for you that this is internet forum. There have only been a few people to light me anger on this forum and you just added yourself to the short list.
I didn’t say anything about the people or races of those countries. I didn’t call for any extermination or removal of any country from the face of the planet, which by the way some mid east countries have done regarding Israel.
Unless and until you apologize you can simply FUCK off. Have a good weekend
Man you guys are just silly. No one has made ANY comment even closely related to be a Nazi. If this thread was about how screwed up the US is or how bad of a guy GWB is you two would be the first ones in. The charge of being called a Nazi is beyond the pale, to me anyaway. If you guys really believe this conversation resembles being a Nazi in any way then you are sad little people with no clue about what the Nazi’s really did.
Try this again, wrote the response and wouldn’t reply. Fair question, and the answer is no. I am aware that I have no first hand knowledge in those countries, although a small amount with people from those countries here. I base my opinions about that part of the world on things I read and see on tv from our media and their media. I know that, just like the US, it is a small filter and I will state again, despite what my friends who poste above have accused me of, I don’t hate people from the mid east. This isn’t about hatred or dislike. I think that the culture, as a whole, has some very clear issues and that if not for the tremendous revenues from the oil it would be more pronounced. The fact that they have some serious failures in their culture is no different then what people here have said about the US and the culture here, some just get angry because you are not supposed to make judgements or point out weakness anymore.
Well, I guess a paralell argument should be made that all the military payrolls should be backed out of the defence budget since that moeny is returned back to our economy.
Ooops. Pie chart just got way smaller.
There are a lot of “intangible” benefits to our defense budget: Technology, space program, GPS, the Internet, military payrolls, etc. etc.
I would argue those influences have had a greater positive effect on our economy and lifestyle than has social security and welfare.
How has social security helped develop the space shuttle? the communications satelite? the GPS? The cell phone? Kevlar fibers? supersonic travel? Gore-Tex? malaria-small pox- and other vaccines and on and on and on.
Defence budget inflated? Most of the technology incorporated in the manufacture of the new Airbus A380 was developed under funding for other defense projects such as the C-5A transport and other very large aircraft.
The Lockeheed F-117 Nighthawk was developed from concept to flying prototype (the “Have Blue” development stage) in only 175 days and for less than Ford Motor Company spent to develop the Taurus and Sable. That aircraft accounted for only 2% of the total aircraft in theater during Gulf War I (Desert Storm) but hit 60% of the high value targets. That is pretty cost efficient- and the civilian benefit was improvments in GPS and communication. It isn’t a coincidence that in vehicle and in cell phone GPS became common after Gulf War I.
Now, I will not for one moment argue that the pursuit of better technology is worth fighting a war. It isn’t. but it is worth acknowledging that there are tangible benefits to defense spending outside of war, and that those benefits equal or exceed the benfits of social programs like welfare, etc.
Put it this way: The school lunch program never bought me a bike shop. The school lunch program never taught me three languages, the school lunch program didn’t fly may ass to five continents. The school lunch program didn’t teach me to run a business in a hostile environment.
Social security didn’t even give us enough to bury my dad.
Speaking entirely for myself- the most important social program in my life was the U.S. Army.
One of the reasons that I asked was a lot of the ground based military friends that I have (mostly air force) have a really bad view of Saudi Arabia. I was in the gulf, on ship, when the barracks were hit and they have every right to have a negative perception.
I agree that is a very different culture (I don’t want to say backward or bad because that doesn’t really fit how I feel). I spent about 15 days on liberty out and about in UAE and Oman and another 5 days in the UAE were all personnel were restricted to the international zone (about a mile wide strip of sand around the harbor). Almost all of the people that I met had a few things in common 1) they wanted to practice the English that they knew (which is cool to hear) 2) they didn’t hate Americans (even military guys) 3) they didn’t like the American policy toward Israel (start of the first intufada) 4) they were general working class shmoo’s like most Americans, trying to make a buck and unlike most Americans not get blown up or shot while doing it.
The average working guy in the Middle East (excluding Saudi Arabia were secondary education in Theology is very common more on that later) has a limited education and gets a lot of their views from the Friday sermon at the mosque. If you or I got all of our news from a man that was a xenophobe/fear monger/hate monger how different would our outlooks be? Freedom of and access to the press is a huge influence in Europe and the United States it allows us to see different perspective on the same issue not just whatever the government’s official line is.
Besides freedom of the press imagine living in a country that imposes the death penalty for converting away from the state religion. That is some scary stuff; it stifles free thought as much as freedom of religion. There are also ‘Morality Police’ that roam the streets in packs and deal out beating for infractions (western clothing, kite flying, other stuff).
A theocratic government that controls a huge amount of wealth needs to keep its people happy. Saudi Arabia isn’t doing this, now that is a welfare state, huge amounts of foreign workers doing jobs that the citizens won’t because the job is beneath them since they have a college education in theology. Half of your citizens can’t drive or work outside the home (women) how would America’s economy be doing right now if we never had women in the workforce?
I don’t mind you pointing out weaknesses or problems in other cultures, I just wanted to point out that we are probably more alike with the average working stiff than we are different. But the Middle East is dominated by rigid fundamentalism right now and that is the face most people see.
Shad, appreciate your insight and that is what I have been driving at, and why the Nazi comment makes me so angry. This isn’t about me hating anyone. I understand and agree that it is their source of info (their religion) and the control their governments hold (partly through religion) that form there frame of reference. I hold their religous beliefs largely accountable for the state of those countries. Ruling by a religion that promotes fear and violence through extrememly harsh punishments has proven to be ineffective in running a happy and productive society. I just read a story about the use of stoning in Iran. The stoning of women in front of families as punishment for nothing more than adultery or refusing to marry the man chosen.
I understand that this is a different culture and that I don’t understand the complexities of it but none the less some acts, customs and laws are just wrong and barbaric.
Thanks one of my goals this years was to not got into arguments with people on the internet (sigh it looks horrible when you write it down). I want to try and figure out why I think why I do and also why you think why you do. Unfortunately I’m not always right but I’m always will to tell you why I think I am. Just don’t call me a Nazi 