Another example of how the middle east is a drain on the world

It is amazing how many of today’s issues arise from the middle east and yet they don’t care and don’t have any desire to contribute to the overall good of people. Just sit there and collect checks

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/toons/varvel/muslim_tsunami2_cover.jpg

“A day after President George Bush increased the US pledge to $US350million ($448 million) the Japanese Prime Minister, Junichiro Koizumi, announced his country would contribute up to $US500million. Aid from the Australian Government totals $60million,…” http://www.smh.com.au/news/Asia-Tsunami/Donations-hit-26bn-as-nations-dig-deep/2005/01/02/1104601246559.html?oneclick=true

“Oil-rich Gulf Arab states, home to millions of Asian workers, have so far pledged a mere 70 million dollars to victims of the Asian tsunami disaster despite reaping seven times as much in crude** revenues daily**.” http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/uae/?id=12349 (my emphasis)

If not for the oil that part of the globe would be little more than a big garbage dump stuck in a time warp.

That’s not right - on the only country-by-country list I ever saw, Saudi Arabia was about the same as Australia - each ~$100million US. This list was a couple weeks old, but to say that all the oil-states in the Middle East have only pledge $70mil is either horribly outdated or total BS.

I can’t find a simple country by country list, if you know where I can see one let me know. Also, I the numbers are state pledges, not donations from all sources in any one country, obviously those numbers are much higher. I found an article on Al Jazeer that lists as high as 85 and another as high as $100

“They point out that the combined pledges from the Middle East and the Gulf of around $100 million amount to a fifth of Japan’s single pledge of $500 million” http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story.asp?StoryId=CqDT0ueidDhn1BMfTAs1HCMfICY1HC2LHBNm

Still not impressive.

we’re back to the Donations Cock Fight thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=289472;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

In reality, Saudi Arabia alone has contributed $100m with an open door for more:

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=36303

In any case, US shouldn’t congratulate itself for too long about it’s foreign aid record. In raw dollar tems, it has contributed most since 2001, but can afford to contribute a lot more:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs

I found it, and my memory of the numbers was off…

The 100mil from Saudia Arabia was private donations, same as Australia. The govt. pledges were quite different.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/01/02/world.relief.contribution.reut/index.html

LONDON, England (Reuters) – Following is a list of monetary contributions pledged by governments and the World Bank to help Indian Ocean nations hit by the December 26 earthquake and tsunami, compiled from reports by Reuters bureaus and U.N. agencies. (Private donations are in parentheses where available)

(in millions of U.S. dollars)

ADB 675.00

African Union 0.10

Algeria 2.00

Australia 815.00 (106.00)

Austria 10.88 (24.48)

Bahrain 2.00

Belgium 16.32

Britain 96.00 (187.00)

Bulgaria 0.14

Canada 80.00 (76.00)

China 83.00

Croatia 0.69 (0.148)

Cyprus 0.37

Czech Republic 0.69 (5.50)

Denmark 76.83 (23.13)

EU 529.30

Finland 66.16 (22.42)

France 64.57 (49.00)

Germany 660 (333.00)

Greece 1.34 (22.50)

Hungary 1.20

India 25.00

Ireland 13.62 (21.20)

Italy 95.00

Japan 500.00

Kuwait 10.00

Libya 2.00

Luxembourg 6.80

Mali 0.20

Netherlands 34.00 (148.20)

New Zealand 3.60

Niger 0.25

North Korea 0.15

Norway 181.90 (61.00)

Poland 1.00 (1.30)

Portugal 10.59 (4.63)

Qatar 25.00

Saudi Arabia 30.00 (101.13)

Senegal 0.20

Singapore 23.10

Slovakia 0.23

Slovenia 0.24 (0.70)

South Korea 50.00

Spain 68.02

Sweden 80.00

Switzerland 23.81 (97.10)

Taiwan 50.25

Turkey 1.25

UAE 20.00

USA 350.00 (324.00)

Venezuela 2.00

World Bank 250.00

Total: 5,031.00 (1608.438)

I am not arguing we (or any country) gave all they could, and I actually prefer that it be up to individuals to give. I was really trying to point out that those countries in the mid east continue to be a source of conflict and all that keeps them relevant is their oil. Other than that, they wouldn’t be any different that other 3rd world countries. Those, unbelievably wealthy states, had an opportunity to really help and take a leadership role and missed it.

If the gist of this thread is that the “non-integrated gap” is a sucking black hole on the rest of the world economy, you are right on the money.

Member nations in the non-integrated gap have been “takers” in the world economy for decades. They are the problem children- the special need cases. We spend billions- no, trillions historically to secure these regions from… themselves largely. And what do we see in return? Well, a few of the countries do sell us oil, at a healthy profit. The rest import such useful commodities as A.I.D.s., Ebola, terrorism, debt, famine, genocide, corruption and lawlessness.

As a moral nation- or more realistically, one that at least strives for morality, we shoulder the obligation that comes with affluence. That we help those in need. And we do. We feed them, educate them, secure them. But it is rare that a part of their history is to shoulder the burden of their own future.

I wonder what leaders of those countries think. I once had an audience with the King of a reasonably large, fairly well developed North African country. I was there as a tourist athlete. He asked me, “What do you think of our country?” I told him. He said, “How can we improve our country?” I told him.

I was so surprised he actually even entertained, even if only for appearances, this conversation. He is in the minority of this region. He is also, sadly deceased.

We must incorporate the non-integrated gap into the core, right?

Tell me again how this is different from assimilating them into the empire?

We must incorporate the non-integrated gap into the core, right?

Is this the Borg? Or do these terms come from somewhere else?

Libya 2.00

Luxembourg 6.80

Mali 0.20

Mojozenmaster 0.00

Netherlands 34.00 (148.20)

New Zealand 3.60

Niger 0.25
.

Is this the Borg? Or do these terms come from somewhere else?

They come from Tom’s idol, Barnett. Author of “The Pentagon’s New Map,” a book which Tom is so attached to he’s refused to loan it to a fellow member of the Peaceful Tribe.

I think the terms might actually have originated on Star Trek. Certainly the integrated core as Barnett describes it functions in much the same manner as the Borg.

Cheap fuck.

Is this the Borg? Or do these terms come from somewhere else?

They come from Tom’s idol, Barnett. Author of “The Pentagon’s New Map,” a book which Tom is so attached to he’s refused to loan it to a fellow member of the Peaceful Tribe.

I think the terms might actually have originated on Star Trek. Certainly the integrated core as Barnett describes it functions in much the same manner as the Borg.
I should check that book out. Which means I’ll go to Borders, set a cup of coffee, and read it there.

The terms don’t come from Star Trek. Tom Barnett is a pretty well respected thinker on national security issues. He teaches at the Naval War College. Here’s the article most people have read on this subject.

http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/published/pentagonsnewmap.htm

Hey man, don;t be dissin’ on my man Barnett. He was the real deal before his latest big book and his wussy job as a REMF at the Naval College.

The guy answers every e-mail he gets too. That’s huge. He did work on East/West Germany (using intelligence gathered by the finest long range surveillance and intelligence gathering organization on earth) long before he wrote “The Pentagon’s New Map”.

The vision in that book is pragmatic and realistic.

Basically, the non-integrated gap could just be themselves, hang out, behead people, abuse women, wreck the environment, commit genocide, exploit children, use chemical and biological weapons on each other and writhe around on the ground after natural disasters, practice religious intolerance, promote illiteracy, not seperate church from state, not practice due process, deify egotistical self-appointed despotic leaders, not live by the rule of law and do all those things they do now and more and just leave us alone and everything would be fine.

We could rationalize it somewhere in our conscience to just turn our backs on them while we sipped latte’s and stressed over wide screen TV purchases, what SUV to buy and our bike fits- important things like that.

However, we did that from about 1921 to 1933 (Isolationism) and we discovered that if you don;t watch your back, the Non-Integrated Gap crawls up our back and bites us in the neck.

They aren’t happy enough to enjoy their ignorant misery alone, they have to spread their doctirne of misery and deprivation to the world under a long list of guises such as religion.

Now, you could argue, we do the same things. And we do. But we are nice.

We don’t kill our own people with rare exceptions. Kent State is a distant reality from what Saddam did to the Kurds.

No, we aren’t perfect. As a nation, as a culture as a society. At our very best we are merely a projection of our individual character’s on a grander scale- good and bad.

But we are a damn sight better than some of those third world hell-holes where a child’s life is utterly worthless and toilet paper is money.

So, if we export some of our most valuable resources like information, knowledge, education, tolerance, diversity, connectivity and most of all- hope, to the non-integrated gap then they can decide from a menu of things how they want their own lives to look. And I wager, two life times removed from now, it will look a lot different than it does not, largely due to tough decisions we have made now.

Look at Germany and Japan today. Now, look at them retrospectively 3 decades ago, 5 decades, 6…

That is Iraq. That is Afghanistan. That is the dream of the non-integrated gap. That one day they will contribute instead of just detract. It isn’t conquest or empire. It’s peace.

I wager (I’m 43) it will be 25 years before I sit in downtown Baghdad on a street corner cafe’ after doing the Baghdad Triathlon and visiting the war museum in Fallujah and the memorial to Scott Helvenston on the bridge there. It will take that long. But one day I will travel under the crossed sabres at the gates of Baghdad as a free and safe man on vacation in a land of happy, free people who steer their own government the way they see fit, like Germany and Japan do today.

I’m looking forward to that. Biography for
Scott Helvenston

Mini biography

Scott Helvenston was born in 1965 in Ocala, Florida and raised in Leesburg, Florida. In 1982, he received special permission to join the U.S. Navy and, at 17, he became the youngest Navy SEAL in U.S. history. After graduating BUD/S, he deployed with SEAL Team Four, served for 2 years, and later moved to San Diego, California, where he deployed with SEAL Team One. Since his early years, Scott always excelled at physical fitness and athletics. As a result, he applied and became an instructor at BUD/S, leading PT (Physical Training) every morning for 4 years. With a fond memory for his airborne training, Scott later became an AFF (Accelerated Freefall) Instructor for 4 years until he was medically discharged from the Navy in 1994 for back, wrist, and ankle injuries due to a partially collapsed canopy malfunction.

With high aspirations, Scott recovered, resumed his fitness regimen, and became an actor and stuntman in Hollywood. His many credits include “Face-Off” and “G.I. Jane.” Scott was the man who got Demi Moore into that incredible physical shape for the film.

In 1997, Scott founded Amphibian Athletics, a Navy SEAL Training and fitness company with the goal of teaching people the skills to excel in outdoor activities, and life, in general. His Navy SEAL Training Camps became quite popular and frequently were spotlighted on television and in the newspaper. Due to the success of the training camps, Scott drew from his PT background and designed a video workout series, allowing greater access to his fitness education. With 11 videos to his credit, Scott became quite well known in the fitness world.

In 2003, after the United States led a coalition to remove Saddam Hussein from power, Paul Bremer was named the head of the Provisional Coalition Authority. With a demand for experienced operators in Iraq, Scott was asked to join the security team tasked with protecting Ambassador Bremer. After heading back East to sharpen all his combat skills, Scott deployed to Iraq. Then, on March 31, 2004, the news returned to the States that Scott was one of four American contactors who were ambushed, brutally murdered, and set aflame in Fallujah, Iraq, while an angry Iraqi mob cheered on live TV. Scott left behind two young children.

In a short amount of time, Scott Helvenston accomplished many goals that we can all admire. In addition to his success as a Navy SEAL, he was a two-time, gold medal-winner in the pentathlon, and to this day, Scott remains the only human contestant on the popular TV program “Man against the Beast” to win, racing against three different chimpanzees on an obstacle course. Scott also represented the Navy SEAL Teams on the television program “Combat Missions.” He always seemed to be the last man standing.

If the gist of this thread is that the “non-integrated gap” is a sucking black hole on the rest of the world economy, you are right on the money.

It is an economic black hole because we attempt to do for them what they are unwilling to do. We dump tons of money to that part of the world in the hope they will let go of the facets of their culture and or religion that create such hate and violence. While we play nice with countries like Saudi Arabia they continue to allow the same schools to teach the same hatred. It seems to me that the middle east can be divided into two groups. One comprised of our foes, like Iran. The other are those who pretend to be our friends, but in reality only do the bare minimum to keep the appearance, like Saudi Arabia.

If not for the oil that part of the globe would be little more than a big garbage dump stuck in a time warp.

if the middle east didn’t have oil, it’d be africa…

Your insight is very good in my opinion. I think you are right on the money.

A big failing of the fucntioning core and the U.S. specifically is that we “project” our value system and what we hold dear onto other cultures.

When the first US Special Operations teams arrived on the ground in Afghanistan in October 2001 they brought with them a substantial quantity of cash to pay for Afghan Northern Alliance soldiers and to bribe and reward intelligence assets. Now, in the U.S. and the functionaing core, information can be bought and sold at a bargain rate. A guy sold U.S. submarine secrets for a few hundred thousand dollars and is now in Leavenworth. He sold away his country and his life for a few bucks. In the U.S. and Europe and especially Asia that works. But in many parts of the middle east money won’t buy loyalty or information. The $25 million reward for Bin Ladin may as well be $25. They don’t recognize the value of the cash (or share our perceived value). One operator showed an Afghan $100,000 and asked him if he knew what he could do with the money, according to Robin Moore’s book, the Afghan said, “I can buy balloons for my children.” There is also a fairly accurate depiction of this in the John Wayne movie “The Green Berets” where Wayne’s character offers a Montagnard tribesmen money to ally with US Special Forces teams and shun the Viet Cong. In the movie the tribesman answers, “What’s money?”. That is how different the culture can be.

Also, who is to say that the entire rest of the world aspires to the things you and I aspire to? They do not. And that is something the U.S. must respect. This is a fine line though. If a country does not want democracy as a form of government, that is not a problem. But how do we react to them not allowing wmen to drive? To learn to read? How do we react to a country that is soverign, secure, contributes to the world economy and welfare and is a good good global citizen to a degree but then abuses its children, envirnoment and female population for religious and economic reasons. Do we tolerate that just because they are not beheading U.S. hostages or flying airliners into our buildings?

My opinion is that we are human beings first, and Americans second. That our primary obligation is to each other as human beings first, then as Americans. To me that means we do have an obligation to safeguard children that are exploited, women that are oppressed, environments that are being destroyed. but that is where our national/moral obligation ends.

If Afghanistan wants to combine their governmental system closely with religion that is their prerogative as a free, sovereign nation. As long as they are good members of the global community, that is their national right. It is when they sponsor terrorism and wantonly violate human rights that become an adversary.

I will argue that the problem is more complex than you characterize it as two groups- One that is an adversary and another that maintains a facade of detante’ but is really adversarial.

The problems in the middle east and throughout the non-integrated gap are titanic and complex and deeply rooted. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer.

Also, it is worth acknowledging that different nationalities and cultures manage there disputes differently. Here’s a story:

Next door to us is a gas staton owned by a man named Sam from Lebanon. I like Sam, and I have helped him out with the city zoning board of appeals and city council. He is a responsible business man with a large number of nice gasoline retail stores. Good neighbor.

Sam has a number of employees, all recent immigrants: Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc. One day I walk in there and all hell is breaking loose. Sam is screaming at Hajj (a guy really named Mo, but we call him Hajj becasue he has made the pilgrimage) at the top of his lungs in Arabic, Hajj is screaming back at Sam, gesturing wildy with his arms. Meanwhile another guy, also named Mo (short for Mohammed and the reason we just call the first Mo “Hajj”) is in the mix, screaming in Arabic, calling them “dickless idiots” and “stupid whores”.

This whole drama unfolds and I buy a Diet Coke and leave. The argument goes on the entire 3-4 minutes I’m in the gas station, full volume, everyone screaming and gesturing in Arabic at the top of their lungs. Total Jihad.

I say, “Shukran” (Thank you) and leave.

A few hours later I am in there and all is quiet. I ask Hajj, “What were you, Mo and Sam fighting about this morning when I came in?”

Hajj looks at me and says, “Fight? what fight?”

Some cultures settle their differences differently. That is another part of the problem.

Hmmmm.

I spent some time in the UAE and Oman when I was in the Navy the idea of personal space and what is gender appropriate is much different. Guys hold hands while doing business, the average conversational distance is about 3 inches. It takes some getting used too. That and seeing the misery that is Africa and the poor part of Asia turned me into the liberal freak I am today, I lost the nationalist streak that clouds most americans judgment. I try not to buy into the dehumanizing of americas enemies or looking down on people because of the accident of their birth place.

You hit the nail on the head with forcing countries to be good neighbors not America lite.

Your perspective confirms why I think everyone should do some type of national service, be it humanitarian or military, so they develop a global perspective.

You went, you learned, you know, you’re informed.

I respect that. More Americans need to do that.