An open offer to all bicycle manufacturers

Triathlon Forum
1

As many here are probably aware, I am a fan of Cervelo bicycles, and of Gerard Vroomen and Phil White. I first met them at the Texas A&M wind tunnel before their company had even really gotten off the ground, and over the years they have supported both my wife’s and my own competitive efforts. Perhaps more importantly, I have always found them to be a highly reliable source of information. Thus, my default weapon of choice for 2009 (and beyond) would be a P4. Given, however, that a number of manufacturers are now claiming that their bicycle is “faster than a Cervelo!” (at least the venerable P3C) I thought I would make this open offer:

If you will loan me one of your frames for a period of at least 1 y (say, 4/1/2009 to 4/1/2010), I will field-test it (and possibly test it in the Texas A&M wind tunnel) using the exact same procedure, components, position, etc., I used to evaluate my wife’s P3C. I will then report my findings here. If your frame indeed proves faster than the P3C, you will be able to cite these data in support of your claims. If it isn’t, well, at least you will be able to say that you were not afraid of having your bicycle put to the test by someone with a reputation as, ahem, a bit of a harsh critic.

Any takers?

2

Your Huffy AeroStealth with Streamline Bell and Front Basket are in the mail. Please remove tassels before testing :stuck_out_tongue:

3

As many here are probably aware, I am a fan of Cervelo bicycles, and of Gerard Vroomen and Phil White. I first met them at the Texas A&M wind tunnel before their company had even really gotten off the ground, and over the years they have supported both my wife’s and my own competitive efforts. Perhaps more importantly, I have always found them to be a highly reliable source of information. Thus, my default weapon of choice for 2009 (and beyond) would be a P4. Given, however, that a number of manufacturers are now claiming that their bicycle is “faster than a Cervelo!” (at least the venerable P3C) I thought I would make this open offer:

If you will loan me one of your frames for a period of at least 1 y (say, 4/1/2009 to 4/1/2010), I will field-test it (and possibly test it in the Texas A&M wind tunnel) using the exact same procedure, components, position, etc., I used to evaluate my wife’s P3C. I will then report my findings here. If your frame indeed proves faster than the P3C, you will be able to cite these data in support of your claims. If it isn’t, well, at least you will be able to say that you were not afraid of having your bicycle put to the test by someone with a reputation as, ahem, a bit of a harsh critic.

Any takers?

Hey! I already offered to do that in a reply to SuperDave on another thread!..except, I had the pre-condition that I got to keep all the bikes :wink:

4

Your Huffy AeroStealth with Streamline Bell and Front Basket are in the mail. Please remove tassels before testing :stuck_out_tongue:
I reserve the right to pick and choose among offerings, and refuse to test anything that I would be embarrased to ride. :slight_smile:

5

someone with a reputation as, ahem, a bit of a harsh critic.

Dr C,

Are you becoming the Jobst Brandt of Slowtwitch?

I often wonder what JB would think of all the stuff that get’s talked about here and what his reaction would be.

6

Hey! I already offered to do that in a reply to SuperDave on another thread!..except, I had the pre-condition that I got to keep all the bikes :wink:

Did you? Sorry, didn’t mean to be stealing your thunder…

Hmm, maybe we should get together and call ourselves an institute…er, testing service? :wink:

7

someone with a reputation as, ahem, a bit of a harsh critic.

Dr C,

Are you becoming the Jobst Brandt of Slowtwitch?

I often wonder what JB would think of all the stuff that get’s talked about here and what his reaction would be.

Why wonder? Just ask him…I’m sure he’ll tell you…although he might end up going off on some tangent and not understanding the premise… :wink:

To be honest, a lot of what Doc C. discusses is VERY “Jobstian” in that it typically challenges the “myth and lore” of cycling and athletics.

8

Hey! I already offered to do that in a reply to SuperDave on another thread!..except, I had the pre-condition that I got to keep all the bikes :wink:

Did you? Sorry, didn’t mean to be stealing your thunder…

Hmm, maybe we should get together and call ourselves an institute…er, testing service? :wink:

An institute? Cool…my wife always tells me I should be in an institution! :slight_smile:

Here’s the thread:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2219134;search_string=superdave;#2219134

Dave didn’t think he’d get much “marketing value” out of my name…but, that might be different with yours :wink:

9

although he might end up going off on some tangent and not understanding the premise.

I used to love Jobst absolutely ripping into people on some of those old newsgroups. Wow! That was great stuff. Worth it for the entertainment value alone. I am guessing he would have an absolute field day with the tri-crowd.

10

Your post points back to the need for a clearing house of aerodynamic testing. A standard test protocol. Of course no manufacturer is going to take you up on this because they suspect an incestuous relationship with and allegiance to Cervelo.

I called for an industry board to “equalize” or standardize aerodyanmic testing in this editorial:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/...orials/0000133.shtml

It would be the “Rosetta Stone” or "Stack and Reach " of wind tunnel testing.

Few manufacturers are going to surrender to that.

The fact of the matter is that a couple- very, very few, bike companies use aerodynamic testing to develop their products. Most use aerodynamic “testing” to *market *their products. The differences are profound.

When designers with a degree from the Center for Creative Studies or similar institution design a bike we get a great looking machine. Take it to the wind tunnel, put a popular rider on it, blow some smoke, shoot some photos, publish some cool sounding data. Voila! Sold! Awesome! Vias or Mastercard?

When *engineers *go to the wind tunnel with… nothing and start with a blank pallet we get something, well, a little weird looking. Not particularly pleasing to the eye. Kind of disjointed in appearance. It is born of pragamtism, a *product *of the data, and a marketers biggest challenge.

What is easier to sell? Something that looks great with an aura and mystique built around it, endorsed by the flashiest names (in exchange for compensation, slightly more compensation they received to endorse the last product they used, and the one before that?)? Or, is it easier to sell something workmanlike, pragmatic, outwardly inelegant?

Manufacturers will never conceed to unilateral aerodyanmic test standards. It’s simply too… *accountable. *It’s the reason why Consumer’s Reports doesn’t test perfume.

11

I have a med ttx you could test (if it fit you), but you can’t have it for a year. I am in STL is you want to give it a try.

12

although he might end up going off on some tangent and not understanding the premise.

I used to love Jobst absolutely ripping into people on some of those old newsgroups. Wow! That was great stuff. Worth it for the entertainment value alone. I am guessing he would have an absolute field day with the tri-crowd.

He still does it…just wander on over to rec.bicycles.tech and you’ll find him…same ol’ shtick :wink:

13

Hey! I already offered to do that in a reply to SuperDave on another thread!..except, I had the pre-condition that I got to keep all the bikes :wink:

Did you? Sorry, didn’t mean to be stealing your thunder…

Hmm, maybe we should get together and call ourselves an institute…er, testing service? :wink:

Problem as I see it is you already have a bias towards one product. Can you really do “independant” testing after having stated your close affiliation with one particular product? Even if you totally did it on the level, simply by people knowing how you feel about Cervelo can skew the results in peoples eyes.
Or at least that is how it could look.

Just saying

14

Hey! I already offered to do that in a reply to SuperDave on another thread!..except, I had the pre-condition that I got to keep all the bikes :wink:

Did you? Sorry, didn’t mean to be stealing your thunder…

Hmm, maybe we should get together and call ourselves an institute…er, testing service? :wink:

Problem as I see it is you already have a bias towards one product. Can you really do “independant” testing after having stated your close affiliation with one particular product? Even if you totally did it on the level, simply by people knowing how you feel about Cervelo can skew the results in peoples eyes.
Or at least that is how it could look.

Just saying

…which is why I never used the word “independent” in my original post. On the one hand, I have owned/ridden/been supported by Cervelo for a number of years, and so could be considered biased in their favor.* On the other hand, I would have free use of somebody else’s frame for at least a year, which could potentially bias me in the other direction. Hopefully, my reputation as an objective scientist is such that people would trust the results regardless of which way they turned out…but it is a risk that any manufacturer would have to take.

*Tom, OTOH, has no association with them, yet his results comparing a P3C vs. a P2k are strikingly similar to what I obtained when comparing a P3C track vs. a P2T. Just saying…

15

I have a med ttx you could test (if it fit you), but you can’t have it for a year. I am in STL is you want to give it a try.
I appreciate the offer, but 1) a medium TTX would be too tall, and 2) this is a limited-time-only offer .

16

Problem as I see it is you already have a bias towards one product.

Mark,

Just ignore him then. Dr Coggan is just a troll! :slight_smile:

17

No offense, but this request seems a little ludicrous.

It’s kind of like if Mercedes would ask other car manufacturers to send models to Mercedes test centers for a year so they could hold tests on their competition.

Why on earth would any car manufacturer do this? Has nothing to do with being “brave” enough.

If anything - Mercedes (or Cervelo) should purchase competitors’ bikes and run the tests themselves.

18

If anything - Mercedes (or Cervelo) should purchase competitors’ bikes and run the tests themselves.

Their is nothing stopping them from doing this and if we are talking about it, I have to imagine that both car companies and bike companies are doing it.

19

No offense, but this request seems a little ludicrous.

It’s kind of like if Mercedes would ask other car manufacturers to send models to Mercedes test centers for a year so they could hold tests on their competition.

Why on earth would any car manufacturer do this? Has nothing to do with being “brave” enough.

If anything - Mercedes (or Cervelo) should purchase competitors’ bikes and run the tests themselves.
I think your analogy is weak at best. First, I do not work for Cervelo, nor have I ever been given a Cervelo. Second, as a scientist my professional reputation would be on the line here, and much like an attorney, that is about all I really have (which is why I started my post with a disclosure). Third, if anything I would presumably be motivated to find any new bike faster than (or at least as fast as) a P3C, since we no longer own the latter and I wouldn’t want to race on anything that I believed to be slower.

20

If anything - Mercedes (or Cervelo) should purchase competitors’ bikes and run the tests themselves.

Their is nothing stopping them from doing this and if we are talking about it, I have to imagine that both car companies and bike companies are doing it.