Jimmy,
I have sent you three emails in the past 5 years offering suggestions on how to improve swim safety. I have never even received a cursory reply. Last year I suggested above the knee and below the waist buoyancy shorts, 5 mm thickness max, be allowed in water temps above 76.1 and the USAT limit of 78.1 F and still be able to be eligible for age group awards, etc. My point was that they were already allowed with the above restrictions. However, the people who were dying during the swim, experienced triathletes, were the ones most likely to not wear the shorts because of the rule. Mr. Riccitello, you come from a strong swimming background, the resistance I have received whenever this topic is broached has 100% come from experienced swimmers who perceive it as an infringement of their swimming advantage. I ask that before there is another swim death with the participant sinking to the bottom of the water, that buoyancy shorts be allowed with no restrictions. If you feel conflicted, please do the proper thing in these type of cases and recuse yourself.
At the very least investigate ways to make the swim safer.
I am absolutely aghast at the amount of time and effort put into the new drafting rules, and last yearās hydration rules, and NOTHING presented from any of the governing bodies to improve swim safety.
Iām at a bit of a loss here, how exactly do you think buoyancy shorts prevent a heart attack or other heart anomaly? And once your body is devoid of any air in the lungs, they are not going to keep you on the surface, at least not for very long.
But as a lifelong swimmer, I could give two shits if they are allowed or no. They seemingly are allowed like the wetsuits are in all conditions, just puts you in a different category..
I think you are barking up the wrong tree at IM and Jimmy. First, this is not an IM problem. This is a triathlon problem. Second, IM is unlikely to do anything unless World Triathlon (WT) and USAT do something. So if you want talk to the people who actually might do something, talk to WT and USAT.
I think we have to understand the problems before we truly get to an solution. If the swim deaths that are occurring in tri are the experienced athletes who are dying from an medical issue, thatās a much different course of action than if we are just having a bunch of newbs drowning cus they arenāt properly prepared. How you legislate and improve swim safety for the swimmer who has a medical emergency is going to be really really difficult to solve.
@stevej the only thing Iād say is that at some point if your one of PTBās in the sport (and IM certainly is) and itās your events that keep having swim deaths, I think your almost going to be forced to come up with solutions and/or work with the governing bodies. I donāt think itās Jimmy Rās responsibility hell Iād contact the CEO before I would Jimmy R. Officiating duties are his focus.
Absolutely agree that we need more discovery. USAT commissioned a study years ago and discovered nothing, recommended swim warm ups, then abandoned the issue. Who is supposed to ādiscoverā potential solutions to this very serious issue, a University, independent researcher?
I proposed a very simple, incremental change. Would it prevent anything, who knows, but the idea of āoh well, deaths are going to happenā (general comment, not directed at anyone), doesnāt sit well with me.
I think you just have to be careful though- if there is pushback on the bouyance shorts cus it probaly wonāt solve the actual swim deaths from medical emergencies, isnāt the same thing as just ānothing to see hereā response.
What Iām a little surprised about is Iām surprised usat permitting doesnāt require a swim warm up area for races, to help the athletes transition to be ready; especially as I think that was one of the findings in previous studies.
I performed a series of experiments with buoyancy shorts and felt they did provide floatation while inert. Canāt say they will work for everyone, they most likely would not have any assistance in preventing a cardiac event, only the possibility of rescue while the athlete is still on the surface. It would be a very easy study to determine whether there would be any potential effectiveness. Even if it only allows rescuers to get to a body quickly and not to have a dive team recover the victim three hours later.
So the question becomes what other solutions can be implemented to potentially make it safer than this. There may not be, but I think this helps the confidence of swimmers more than it does the swim death issue we are trying to solve.
Requiring anything whether itās an equipment choice (buoy shorts) or medical waiver (something they already do in the elite / DL pathway) is going to be met with some questions of is the value worth the squeeze. This idea that anyone saying wait a minute on this idea as being crummugen is a bit trollish commentary to the conversation.
You literally admitted it will only marginally solve swim deaths then said if anyone doesnāt agree with the is solution is a crummegen. Do better especially with a serious of an issue as what we are seeing.
A 65 kg swimmer needs ~65 L of displaced water to float neutrally.
Human density ā 0.98ā1.05 kg/L, close to neutral or slightly negative.
Add buoyancy shorts (foam):
Foam density ā 0.03 kg/L
Fb = rho_water Ć V_displaced Ć g
For the shorts example:
Delta Fb = 1000 Ć 0.003 Ć 9.8 ā 29.4 N, supports ~3 kg
Effective in-water weight ā 65 ā 3 = 62 kg
This shifts the swimmer to positive buoyancy, allowing them to remain afloat even without active movement.
What a bunch of horse shit, throwing out random numbers does not mean it is true..Itās very simple and I did the experiment that actually matters. I went to the pool, let all the air out of my lungs, and I sank to the bottom with buoyancy shorts on. No amount of your math changes that āfactāā¦
Now mind you Iām not arguing against folks wearing the shorts, just yours and others reasoning is flawed. I do think for some that it would give them a better sense of a type of security, and anything that would help reduce that chance is worth taking about. But claiming that these would reduce even 1 death, no evidence for that at all. Just people throwing out bullshit to bolster an argumentā¦
Thank you for this info. How much does this change when the lungs are filled with water instead of air, as Monty noted above? Are the shorts buoyant enough to overcome this increase in body density?
What about <65kg or >65 kg? You might think that smaller bodies would float more, but the shorts are smaller, lungs are smaller, etc. Vice-versa for larger bodies. What about body fat percentage? So many variables!
Shorts only do so much when person has two large stones inside them I guess?
But remember, thatās not scientific evidence according to this discussion. The previous commenter said he did the same and floated and the scientist asked for data so I pulled up the Archimedes principle.
Larger bodies displace more water. For a 90 kg swimmer:
F_needed = 90 Ć 9.8 = 882 N
Buoyancy from shorts (3 L foam):
Delta Fb = (1000 ā 60) Ć 0.003 Ć 9.8 ā 27.6 N
Equivalent support:
m_supported = 27.6 / 9.8 ā 2.8 kg
They receive 27.6N of upward force.
Iām not saying they float on the top of the water like a life jacket forever.
But the death that sparked this remarked the woman was reaching out grasping and slipped down. It stands to reason with her last weak attempts at reaching up she would have been helped. Maybe died anyway maybe not.
Seems bizarre to be upset about this that someone might need to have to buy a certain type of swimsuit. Especially in a sport like ours.
It does just seem like grumpy swimmers and contrarians.
LOL! As my results will attest, I am NOT a swimmer, and I donāt think I am a contrarian. I am just trying to figure out why someone is proposing a solution that may or may not work to a problem that may or may not exist. People can already wear buoyancy shorts for temperatures between 76.1 and 83.8 (IM), correct? So if they want to wear them for safety, they already can. Surely you are not advocating that they are required to be worn. Are you advocating that people who wear them should be eligible for age-group awards/WC slots? That is a WHOLE OTHER discussion. I would love to see the data that shows that buoyancy shorts do not give the wearer a performance advantage over someone who does not wear them.