Canadian citizen picked up at an airport in the US, rendered to Syria.
The newly released sections indicate that neither the Syrian government nor the Federal Bureau of Investigation were convinced that Mr. Arar was a significant security threat. They also suggest that the investigation of Mr. Arar was prompted by the coerced confession of Ahmad Abou el-Maati, a Kuwaiti-born Canadian who was also imprisoned and tortured in Syria. And despite claims by the United States government that Mr. Arar’s removal to Syria was mainly an immigration matter, the new material suggests that the Central Intelligence Agency led the action.
Completely innocent man, tortured in Syria as a result of another man’s torture. Wonderful.
It stinks but such is life in the big city. For every one example you can give where it was for no good reason, I am sure there are hundreds where useful information was bought to light that saved lives.
It stinks but such is life in the big city. For every one example you can give where it was for no good reason, I am sure there are hundreds where useful information was bought to light that saved lives.
Note: I am not an advocate of torture
I’m glad you are sure. Hope that helps you sleep at night.
I hope there aren’t hundreds of detainees who were rendered so they could be tortured.
For every one innocent person we have executed I am sure that 99 of them were guilty, never got it wrong once and if we did, well its an acceptable cost…uhmmm until its your family…
Thats just the kicker though isn’t it Ken? we can look from the outside in and make all kinds of judgements on these “programs” (GOD knows the media never gets anything wrong anyways) but the reality is there are methods that will get the information we need from people who are, typically, a less than moral bunch. Keeping in mind this is war and not always the nicest state to be in, I suppose you would rather just ask them a few questions and give them milk and cookies? I am open to suggestions as to how to get the information we need without “traditional” methods?
It stinks but such is life in the big city. For every one example you can give where it was for no good reason, I am sure there are hundreds where useful information was bought to light that saved lives.
I agree. Just think of all the lives we could save if we make it policy to torture everyone.
I would nt argue that for one second…it is a slippery slope but someone has to put on the skis, mate, and make sure that information is retreived that is needed to get the military job done.
Heres a question…would you advocate torture if it would have bought to light the plan of the terrorist ten days before 9-11 so we could have stopped it from happening? would the one life we screwed up by bending his mind but extracting useful information be worth the lives of those 3000 lost when the planes hit and people started jumping out of buildings in a hope to escape certain death? I would argue those people who died in 9-11 were tortured by the sheer terror of not knowing if they were going to live or die when the planes hit.
As usual your not reading the whole thread. Had you read the whole thread you would have saw where I said I am not an advocate of torture. I did not dehumanize anything. I love the way you took it out of context. Your imagined meanings of what I wrote will not bring me into that trap mate.
I read the whole thing, crikey, and I noticed that right after you said you weren’t an advocate of torture, you went on to advocate for torture. I didn’t take anything out of context. Your denial of being an advocate of torture was itself out of context, but that’s hardly my fault.
I am starting to think your trying to torture me by responding to my post and putting your own spin on them. I think I woukld rather be waterboarded. (oh wait, I have)
Here’s a question for you. You’ve got 400 guys in custody that you believe are less than morally valuable and you think they may have information about terrorists and potential attacks. Obviously, at this point, you have no idea if they are involved in anything or have any knowledge of anything. But you’ve got your suspicions.
Would you believe in the death penalty if a member of your family had been executed and you knew they were innocent?
IF you knew who it was and IF you could get the information and IF torture were the only way to do it and IF there were no chance you would torture someone inapproriately then its pretty difficult to say no but given that the example you’ve given is asinine in that we dont know with certainty any of things that you have suggested its much harder to justify it.
If with 100% certainty and with no possibility of error EVER of torturing a innocent party or incarcerating them for a prolonged period of time its difficult to object other than on human rights grounds and I dont particularly have a problem with that.
However you cant make any of those guarantees so what we do is cast the net a little wider to those that MIGHT be involved and MIGHT have knowledge and then you are well and truly on the the slope.
“If with 100% certainty and with no possibility of error EVER of torturing a innocent party or incarcerating them for a prolonged period of time its difficult to object other than on human rights grounds and I dont particularly have a problem with that.”
Heres the problem…people are convicted of crimes all the time that they never did. I have heard estimates of as high as 15% of all convicts in US Prisons are innocent. Are a few going to slip through the cracks? Probley. If those few need to suffer to save the masses, then I say its ok. (sounds harsh I know but it is also reality) In the org. link it talked about us “torturing” a know operative of a terriorist network. That is ok with me. Torture for the sake of torture is not. What is the defination of torture as it is being used in this war on terror? Thats the real questions. I don’t think it is torture to have a terrorist become dependent on his handler if it in turn will extract the information desired.
EDIT: I NEVER said I did not beleive in the death penalty.
Of course not. There has to be a resonable expectation of gaining information and just “suspecting” is not enough to make that call. Now, were these same guys I have in custody caught on a battlefield or are they known terrorists? Then that puts a wrench in the equation.
I agree. Torture is not the first or best way to extract information. There are other methods that if they do not work, torture becomes an option. It is an ulgy business but one that is an option when all others fail. Usually, it only takes the pain of one and the rest will talk out of sheer fear.
If those few need to suffer to save the masses, then I say its ok. (sounds harsh I know but it is also reality) In the org. link it talked about us “torturing” a know operative of a terriorist network. That is ok with me.
I suspect you would not be okay with it, if you were one of those few.