An Education Thread for Art

The Coffee Shop
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If we’re gonna be sick, we might as well be smart! ; ^ )

I know that Art, MJuric, and others would like to do away with public education and replace it with a privatized system. What I’d like to know is what are the specifics of the plan? How would this be implimented?

I have no doubt that there are many advantages to a private system. As a former teacher, one of the things that really bugged me was just how poorly so many schools were run. Results were minimal, primarily, because there were no real standards or measures of accountability. A school could suck and, with the exception of replacing the principal, not much else would really be done.

One positive change in recent years was the implimentation of No Child Left Behind. Now, before I alienate the left (as opposed to my usual alienation of the right), there are many many problems with NCLB, but the one positive attribute of the program was that, for once, a school system actually had a “standard” that it had to live up to.

Unfortunately, no child left behind is exactly that…it focuses ALL of its resources on the children in the back. What about the kids in the middle or the ones in the front? How many of your kids are getting a serious college prepatory or enriched education as a reult of a bill that requires the passing of minimal standards? How hard does your child have to study to pass a weeks worth of exams at the end of the semester, exams that 95-99% of the school is expected to be able to pass?

Under a private system, at least then you will have schools working to compete to provide the kind of education that you want for your child. But don’t we already have this? Can’t you already decide to educate your child at home or pay to send him to a private academy?

So then is the question not of “creating better schools” but simply eliminating the “free” ones? If so, then what of the poorer half of society? Will they get an education at all?

This thread is a spin off of the healthcare thread. Art said that “vouchers are the obvious answer.” I listed my concerns with vouchers below. I’d really like to know how a plan like this would be implimented. Frankly, it just looks like there’s too much potential to accomplish nothing more than to put more money back in the pockets of some Americans while reducing the education received by others.

There are pleanty of public schools that do a fine job. Typically they are the ones that receive more money, though I’ll concede that it may be the result of “kids from families with money attending the schools” rather than the money the school receives (ie…good neighborhoods make good schools, but they also pay higher property taxes).

As far as I am aware, the only nation wide systems that we can really compare to are also socialized. So a privitized system would be the first of its kind.

Read on:

From other thread:

I’d love to hear your take on vouchers (I’m serious here).

The fear I have with a voucher system is threefold:

  1. That it will serve nothing more than as a tax rebate for those who already can afford private education. IOW, if Art or Barry Jr. are going to private school for $7,000 a year, their parents will now only have to pay $5,000 a year with a $2,000 voucher. Joe 8Mile and Jerome Compton, on the other hand, can’t afford $5,000 a year anymore than they could $7,000 a year, so no net gain for them.

The only result is people with money get to keep more money (not an education solution, if you ask me).

  1. With the increased demand in private education, private school tuition goes up as vouchers are introduced. In the scenario, Art and Barry were paying $7,000 a year for school. Now they receive $2,000 vouchers, but tuition has increased to $9,000 a year. It seems like a pretty simple supply and demand model.

The only result is increased profits for the private schools.

  1. Increased attendance in private schools leading to a degradation in the public schools. THIS we have a model for and its called New Castle County, DE, formerly (possibly still) the highest private school attendance rate in the country as a result of white flight from court ordered desegregation. The details might best be left for another thread, as you said, but it has left Delaware schools in pretty sad shape. In short, when a large enough population puts their kids in private school, less and less money gets voted to the local school (the common line, “I’m not having my taxes rasied, my kids go to private school.”)

I don’t know what it is like where you are, but where I live (Philly Suburbs) has really nice public schools (as well as Jersey and New York). However, I’ll freely admit that it is voting with your pocket book. You have to make enough money to afford to live in the good school districts. Nevertheless, funding and teacher salaries are two variables that, IMO, make these schools better. Under the current system, simply increasing the salaries of the teachers and taking care of the problem children (like put them in reform school…I know, how Republican of me) would draw better teachers to the jobs (again, for another thread, but it is a sad shame how pathetic the requirements are to become a teacher…BTW, if you hadn’t figured it out, I used to teach and left for a LOT more money as an engineer).

I don’t doubt that a regulated privatized system could be better, but I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how it’s going to be implimented in a fashion that does not lead to 1, 2, or 3 above.

Like I said, I’m all ears.

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You are getting a lot more radical than anything I had in mind.

In most places voucher programs are geared toward the poor and disadvantaged. When scholarships are provided to poor parents to allow their kids to escape the local school system, people queue up for days or dream of winning the lottery.

Ultimately the idea is to put power in the hands of the consumer rather than the bureaucrats. I have a lot more faith in the ability of an illiterate single welfare mother to decide what is best for her kid than an education Phd that doesn’t know the kid’s name.

I do agree that there is a weak correlation between funding and educational achievement in the US. Pretty much the more money spent per student, the worse the result. $13,000 per student in Washington, DC. The bureaucrats there are well paid, multiplying and thriving. The students, well, who really cares?

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I could go on for pages about the waste and bureaucracy in public education. I could go on for many more pages about the sensless implimentation of rediculous programs that have never been tested in a controlled environment and don’t posses a modicum of common sense, nor do they produce a single result…but I really should do some work.

Maybe later.

Regarding vouchers, do you see this as a way to replace public education, or only a means of escape for some while leaving the rest behind?

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"Under a private system, at least then you will have schools working to compete to provide the kind of education that you want for your child. But don’t we already have this? Can’t you already decide to educate your child at home or pay to send him to a private academy?"

To some extent, of course, that already happens, but private schools cannot really flourish at present because of the law of displacement (http://www.humanactioncourse.info/pp/ce/HH23011.html).

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Vouchers and public education are not opposites. I know it is really hard to imagine public funding without government bureaucratic micromanagement, but it really can be done. What is needed in both education and medical care is a vehicle to empower the consumer rather than elites or bureaucrats. It is really hard to do in medical care, and not so easy in education either. Vouchers, charter schools and scholarship programs are all attempts at that approach.

I don’t think you want to live in a country in which the government assigns you to a single supermarket. Why would you want them to assign your education and medical provider?

What kind of supermarket do you think would evolve from such an organization?

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Vouchers are hardly “the solution” … but I also don’t see them as a threat to public education either. At present, they are just a novel idea to most parents.

I agree with most of Barry’s critique: Very often failing students don’t have enough family structure and parental support to do much of anything, nevermind apply for and receive vouchers and transfer schools (Its a big project, really). So only a very lucky few kids with involved parents would benefit.

Also, in many places, private schools are just a tiny alternative. Where I live, public ed. is much better for 95 % of students. The only private high schools here are 1. the tiny Christain one (OK, nice, safe, homey environment, but hardly challenging for better students from what I have heard. Not very high standards) … 2. Very expensive academies in the woods that cater to rich, troubled youth from out of state.

In our district, we have a huge variety of alternatives, from the Alternative school (for troubled students, those with kids, etc.) to very high level programs. Most larger districts should provide nearly all a student needs, IMO, and most do. The trouble is the parents and students don’t always take advantage of it.

It would take many years for more and better private schools to become a big alternative here (and in many places). I think they are really only a significant alternative in heavily populated places.

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There have been acouple of different studies that show that once you control for parental situation andfamily socio-economic status, there really isn’t much in the way of proof that student achievement improves in the charter/voucher environment.

http://www.ncsrp.org/cs/csr/view/csr_pubs/3

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I believe it Jill: When I think of most of the kids I teach, it wouldn’t matter what school they went to (my high school, or another public one or a private one here) … Maybe it will if they are trying to get into an elite college (There are 2 or 3 superior public high schools here, IMO) but if they are job or state college-bound, it matters little, overall. And they can still go to an elite college for grad school, if they do well at state schools … The home has the biggest impact, by far. Public education is doing its best to be aware and help students from disadvantaged backgrounds, I believe. This is one benefit of NCLB … But institutions can only do so much, whether they are public or private.

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In most places voucher programs are geared toward the poor and disadvantaged. When scholarships are provided to poor parents to allow their kids to escape the local school system, people queue up for days or dream of winning the lottery.

Ultimately the idea is to put power in the hands of the consumer rather than the bureaucrats. I have a lot more faith in the ability of an illiterate single welfare mother to decide what is best for her kid than an education Phd that doesn’t know the kid’s name.

When you get the chance, can you expound further? Right now we’re still at “it’s better because it’s better.” I like the grocery store analogy, but I’m still figuring how your whole system fits together. Are you talking about vouchers that are large enough to cover the entire expense of private school? If not, then what do we do with those that can’t afford the rest of the bill?

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“Are you talking about vouchers that are large enough to cover the entire expense of private school?”

I am talking about vouchers that approximate the current cost per student in the existing public school system.

In some private schools that will be more than enough. In some it wouldn’t cover the cost so other funding would be required.

I really like the strategy adopted in recent years to target programs to the disadvantaged students or to failing schools. The education bureaucracy has declared jihad against all such programs, and, for the most part, they have won.

We have tried to do such programs in FL, but have largely lost the bureaucratic, political and legal war. FL schools are a real problem since we are organized by county pursuant to our Constitution. Up north, schools are typically organized by town so parents at least have the option to vote with their feet to get different schools. That makes for a market of sorts, even if a very inefficient one. Still, schools in that region do much better than down here, surely in part because of that small level of competition.

In FL, your only vote is to choose which big blog county school system to attend. You can buy any color car you want so long as it is black.

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The FL schools aren’t all horrible. My middle-income county had 32 A schools and 4 B schools out of 36 total schools in the district, and the principals at the B-rated schools all seemed to be horribly embarrassed by their ‘low’ grades and promise to bring them to A grades next year. Test scores are generally good, and something like 34 of those 36 schools are meeting NCLB goals, which isn’t bad considering a sudden jump in ESL students in the district. (and not just the Spanish speakers, but a wave of Eastern European kids as well.)

They also do a good job of getting resources to at risk students without gutting programs for higher achievers.

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32 A’s and 4 B’s out of 36 grades. Do you think their might be any grade inflation there? Let’s just give all the schools an A and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.

Florida juiced all the “school grades” over the last few years showing a huge increase in average grades. The results on the ground are unchanged though. I will go out on a limb and guess that yard sticks not made of rubber like SAT scores are unchanged during the same time.

My kids went to FL public high schools as well. The AP track at my school does reasonably well on balance, but the rest of it is pretty poor.

When I attended my high school, it had the distinction of being the school in the state with the lowest per capita expenditure. One generation later I remember looking at my daughter’s Geometry curriculum. Talk about dumbed down. That course and its textbook were worthless. I am sure it covered whatever drivel was required by the FCATs though.

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I’m going to be very careful as to not write anything here that you can use in your sig line…but your plan does seem…ahem…reasonable. I’d be happy to see it implimented at experimental levels. IOW, try it out in small populations before making it a broad federal policy.

Re: - town school systems. I agree 100%. I’ve worked in town systems and have worked in county systems. The town systems, at least in some regard, offer a degree of competition. In the county systems you’re pretty much stuck with whatever you have. Even as a disgruntled teacher I remember thinking, “even if I work in another school in this county, I’ll still have to deal with the same bone headed policies and same bone headed supervisor.”

Don’t get me started on how she rigged the curriculum to give the illusion of high achievement on the state tests.

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Actually, they’ve tightened the Florida school grading standards significantly for about the past three years running. This spring, there was talk about how it wouldn’t be a surprise to see a lot of schools drop letter grades because of the higher standards. And it’s not like the criterium they use has room forgrading for effort. It’s all FCAT scores plus determining if a school is meeting NCLB. (‘Do you have enough left-handed Eskimo lesbian midget albinio students to have them constitute a distinct ethnic or racial group? If so, were 80% of the members of that group making adequate yearly progress?’)

But the high-performing districts in my area generally held their own like they always did.

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I’m not sure I said I was for eliminating the public system. Keeping within my belief that modifying the current system is a better choice than implementing a new one I would be for modifying the current one.

I think with any issue you have to identify what the problem is. Here is my take on the problems with socialized education.

  1. Waste in general. I’m not 100% sure where this waste is or the underlying reasons, but in my state the average spent per child in the public system is nearly double that of most of my local private schools. Compound this with the fact that typically the private education is superior, for myriad of reasons, and we have some major issues.

  2. Lack of accountability. This is both for the parents and students as well as the teachers.

  3. Funding difference’s which also feeds into point 2.

First and foremost there is something about writing that check that has a much greater impact than simply packing a lunch, patting your kid on the but and sending them off to school. You want to see parents become more involved, make them write a check to the school rather than a yearly check to the county via taxes to cover roads, schools, airports etc etc. I have no problem with making this income based, but make everyone with a child write this check. Obviously the current system in most places are based on some type of tax. Locally it is based on property tax. Simply removing the tax will allow the parent at very least that income to pay out. Yes this is a simplistic view but I don’t think this thread can handle an in depth discussion on the funding and how it should or would be accomplished. Suffice it to say that parents would write a check equal to or greater than their current tax, additional monies would come from business’s similar to what is paid now.

At lower levels, lets say K-6th, or were ever your switch is from grade to middle school, parents have no choice. These schools will be relatively uniform, yet will still be under high scrutiny because of the following.

After 6th the children will be in competition for entrance into varying schools. Maybe even having schools with different strong points, math vs science or whatever. Still very general but with a little extra for those that may enjoy or excel in those areas. The parents will apply to the desired schools. The schools will accept students based on academics, student/parent/teacher relationships etc. This will of course cause parents to put pressure on their K-6th school as they will want their children to excel and be accepted to the school of their choice.

Obviously those students that do not perform will naturally be sent to lesser performing or less popular schools. By 8th grade I’d even say that some of these students are identifiable as “Non-college” bound and or plain old trouble makers. The trouble makers can be dealt with by removal from the system (Yes I know this goes against the grain, but without a doubt there are children that SHOULD not be in school…probably prison). The “non-College” bound students may enter schools based more on trades and post HS careers. This of course does not exclude them from going to college, but does offer them better opportunities for post HS than just a HS degree would.

The major difference here is that the schools, being largely privately funded, would be in competition for funds. Maybe not all of their funds but will see advantages to excelling. This applies the pressures of “market” that simply don’t exits now. 3 or 4 incidents of parents complaining of problems with a certain child will be impetus for a resolution rather than the problem persisting with no recourse on the part of the parents and many times the teachers. Same goes for teachers and or other parents. A more “Privately funded” system will allow for greater leniency as far as school diversification of education with certain students gravitating toward certain schools. The schools will end up catering to what the parents want for their children a and what the children want. Obviously this can go to far and that will be part of what other funds can control with input from business’s coming in play as well.

I pretty much wrote this on the fly so I’m sure it has lots of holes…so poke away.

~Matt

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You need to be more careful.

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You need to be more careful.

Damn!

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FYI, out of roughly 35 high schools in Delaware (plus all the schools feeding into them) only TWO met NCLB standards. Not two school systems…two schools (an elementary school and a middle school, if I remember correctly).

Again, my fear is that if you adopt a system that only allows more access to private education to some you could end up with a system like this one where 70% of the population is left with failing schools.

Just throwing that out there as a data point and something to be warry of.

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BTW, I just wanted to throw out another data point to think about with regard to private school expenditures versus public school expenditures. I don’t know the exact numbers or whether or not this would be considered a considerable cost (Tripple Threat???), but public schools have to provide for special ed. students where private schools don’t. This can become costly if the child require’s an aide or special trasnportation.

In Cecil County, MD, we had one student that cost well over $100,000 a year to educate.

I have some personal opinions about that which probably won’t be real popular, but it is what it is. Nevertheless, I wonder to what degree this impacts that average cost per student in the public schools.

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I have some personal opinions about that which probably won’t be real popular…

Ohhhh doooo share!

Mine are not popular either and I hold the same belief in some sorts of health care reform. As far as both we have to start looking at a return on investment. Yes calloused and cold, but when we’re talking about the all of society sacrificing so that a few may benefit slightly it makes little sense.

~Matt