Alternatives to the Total Immersion Cult?

Triathlon Forum
1

I think TI is a cult. Effective for many to be sure, with kudos deserved for getting the masses into swimming & exercise. But a cult nonetheless, and here’s why I’m mad about it:

  1. Reading current triathlon “How To” books (Friehl, Niles, etc.) they basically all COP OUT on the swim chapters by saying something like “…to improve your swim, please check out/BUY Total Immersion!”. For sure, TI can make many folks better swimmers. But in my case (after trying the drills for several months, watching the video, reading the book, and having 1-on-1 TI coaching) my 1500 meter TT time SLOWED BY 2 MINUTES. Now I’m sure I was doing something wrong that perhaps Terry could have corrected, but that’s not my point. If there are other techniques/approaches out there (some which may be better for newbie triathletes, see below), why do all the experts cop-out by just adopting TI 100%?

  2. For me, the TI drills made me feel tight and out of control. Especially swimming on my side. My stroke count came down slightly (down to the supposed “wheat from chaff point” of 40 per 50 meters), but I was totally exhausted from the effort and this feeling of tightness did not go away after more than 1 month of constant drill sessions/coaching. I found it EXTREMELY difficult to relax having to use a “shark fin” arm movement (i.e., elbow straight up and tucked in rather than relaxed and out to the side). Surely, I was more streamlined (with shoulders out of water making my “boat” narrower") but I was also 3x more tense. Ok, I admit, maybe if I practiced another year or so I would eventually be just as relaxed as before, but all the experts keep telling me that staying relaxed is the most important part of swimming… my gut feeling: for some triathletes (esp. those like me who started out as runners and only got into swimming in their 30s), the TI method requires to much balance and body control. Not enough bang for the buck. Don’t believe me? See my point 3 below.

  3. Chinese method. After my frustration in slowing down by 2 minutes per 1500 meters after tripling my swim workouts (from 1x to 3x week) and adopting the TI method, I hired a Chinese coach (I live in Beijing). Funny thing was, the first thing this coach did was “correct” my “obviously wrong” arm movement – the “shark fin” where you try to pull your elbow straight up as you rotate to swim on your side “like a fish”. Look, people are NOT fish, and fish DO SWIM ON THEIR STOMACHs (think about it). My new coach says that the most important thing, of course, is to be relaxed. So I tried her method… and although my stroke count went up slightly (44 per 50 from 40 or so with TI on average) I was 5 seconds faster per lap, breathing easier, instantly. Yes, instantly. So I’m going to keep these lessons going. Hey, the Chinese Olympic swimmers (jokes about chemical assistance aside) do pretty damn well in international competitions and they ALL apparently learn to swim this way. And besides, it’s a hell of a lot more fun to actually SWIM in the pool rather than complete endless TI drills.

  4. My theory: the Chinese approach (K.I.S.S. stupid, basically – stay relaxed, stay long, breath) is too easy. Triathletes tend to be professional type obsessive compulsives . . . and what appeals to us is a regimented product that you can BUY. It’s hard, it’s a formula, you may even need to buy some Terry-Approved swim aids (gloves-of-the-month for the new book edition, whatever) or go to a USD 2k swim clinic . . . basically, it means you suffer . . . l think there must be an easier way.

Again, I’m not saying TI is a bad thing, I know it’s helped many folks improve their swimming and rediscover fitness. And Terry is great at running a business. But it is quite irritating for all the other “experts” out there to cram TI down our throats like it’s the only Answer out there… Is it?

2

Alternatives to this cult may the Branch Davidians, The Reverand Sun Yung Moon, The Thuggies, The Ku Klux Klan, that cult in California with the white Nikes- or some other dangerous fringe group with eccentric beliefs.

3

I should start off by stating I am blissfully unaware of the techniques employed by Total Immersion. I am however a former swimmer (17 years competitively) so have some insight on swimming techniques.

Your description of “shark fin” swimming sounds to me like a high elbow recovery. This type of swimming is employed by the vast majority of swimmers (Ian Thorpe, Grant Hackett, Kieran Perkins, Michael Phelps, Alex Popov, and Pieter Van den Hoogenband to name but a few). I would not throw away the idea of a high elbow recovery just yet.

As for “swimming on your side”, well that just takes some time and strength to get used to. The idea behind it is that by using your body roll (hips and shoulders) you are creating a much bigger lever to pull with (from the tip of your hand when arm extended to your hip, compared to the tip of your hand to your shoulder when you are not rolling sufficiently).

I would definitely continue consulting a swim coach. Total Immersion sounds to me like a bit of a fad anyway.

4

Good alternative and definitely cheaper than a TI workshop is joining a Master’s Swim Team. I agree with others in that TI is overrated. Our Master’s coach does not have anything good to say about TI or it’s founder whom he personally knows. I tried reading the TI book and it was better than a sleeping pill. I think the book could’ve been condensed to about 20 pages. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

5

your frustations with TI are things I’ve heard from a lot of people as well. of maybe 10 people I know who’ve tried it (both through videos/books as well as workshops) only 1 person has improved and liked it. my personal take on it (very personal take as I’ve never attended a workshop) is that it helps people who’ve never swum a stroke in their life because it’s core principle of minimizing drag often corrects the most glaring deficiency in untrained swimmers. but you will plateau quickly because you are not taught on the other hand how to maximize resistance with your arms for propulsion (i.e. an effective catch). in a lot of cases (like you) people actually slow down instead of get faster.

it can also be said that minimizing drag by rolling and keeping your head down is not exactly a TI-patented technique–take a look at this site which compares grant hackett and ian thorpe: http://www.svl.ch/index.html. of particular interest is how thorpe is theorized to have a lower stroke count than hackett because he keeps his head down. ditto on the high elbow recovery as most elite swimmers use this technique not really for any added speed but to keep their shoulders from getting injured (with michael klim and inge de bruijn as notable exceptions).

in swimming, technique is everything. i lopped off 30 secs from a 750m TT after one day of stroke correction from my OZ-based triathlon coach. there’s always more than one way to skin a cat, you just have to find a way that works for you. getting a regular (non-TI) swimming coach is almost fool-proof (of course check his credentials) with the only draw-back being possible overtraining if he is not familiar with triathletes. just make clear to him/her that you’re training for long-distance and that you have to ride and run on other days too.

Kim

6

If you’ve got the time to hunt around on the rec.sport.swimming usenet group(available on google.com, select groups if you don’t have a standalone newsreader program) for an afternoon, go back and look for the debates between TI’s Terry Laughlin and a fellow named Larry Weisenthal.

One of Larry’s theses is that TI ala Ian Thorpe is all wrong for triathlon swimming- you really need to be a strong kicker to swim TI fast. Long slow strokes- you get dead spots in the stroke where you have to really kick to maintain propulsion. Instead, trifolks might be better off swimming a higher cadence/turnover stroke like Brooke Bennett or Janet Evans because you can do well swimming that way without having to kick too much.

Larry’s talked a lot about what he sees as flaws with TI over the years. I tend to agree with him more often than not.

7

But it is quite irritating for all the other “experts” out there to cram TI down our throats like it’s the only Answer out there… Is it?

Yeah, it gets pretty stale.

Here’s my method: Spend more time swimming. You’ll get better.

8

Dockimpoy,

Just as a point of interest, Michael Klim has reverted to the high elbow recovery for freestyle as he hurt his shoulders due to his straight arm recovery. Your suggestion that high elbow recovery helps lessen the chance of shoulder injury is well founded!

9

TI is good at teaching body awareness among other things, but like anything else one ought not stop there… move on to other coaches and never stop looking for different ways to improve.

I used TI and improved my swimming tremendously over where I’d been after 3 years of Masters swimming under two swim coaches.

Regarding the book: it is much langer than it need be. I’d recommend the TI waterproof drill guide instead.

10

I used TI to learn to swim (from basically nothing) but last winter I worked on propulsion to get faster.

My take on TI. It is not garbage, the system was great to get me into the water and moving. After you learn how to swim it, it is probably time to move on.

jaretj

12

Good thread. It seems to me that TI’s success is pretty much of a “marketing/sales” phenomenon…and a good one at that. Similar to several of the higher profile bike fit folks. This is a reflection of the “business structure” of triathlon, which is relatviely new and “immature” with a decent demand from new participants and a “supply” by a decentralized group of mostly smaller independant operators who all sell pretty much the same thing to consumers who do not have the ability (time or information) to check out a lot of alternatives.

From bike fitting to coaching, you can see that it is practiced by independent operators who’s success is built on marketing themselves. Most garner a smaller geographic reputation. TI and Terry have done a super job of creating a “system” for tackling a new thing and marketing it as “complete solution” to what is for many, a big problem.

Swimming, is a big, common problem for the newer triathlete and the Terry seems to have the only “complete solution”, which is perfect for the consumer. The alternative solution is “thrown yourself to the sharks” (almost literally) and struggle with some elitist masters program where everyone is so much faster and we all know how older athletes tend to relive their (missed) youth by being too competitive and elitist.

So, in packaging a “complete solution” (within the immature, decentralized “market environment” of triathlon) and then marketing aggressively on a broad scale, you have a hit. Gotta give Terry credit for creating and packaging a “solution” and then marketing it well.

The media picks up on it because it is easy: they get articles and authors when they need it without having to worry about the frequency or quality, and which have trusted name recognition.

Now as to TI itself…here’s where a higher-end, better educated consumers frustration comes in → I was a very cometitive swimmer as a youth (up to age 13). Then took up tri @ age 31 (in 1990) and as part of my “get all the bases covered” program took a TI clinic. It seemed fine. But really only helped my ego and the masters swim practice helped my times.

I took 13 years off of tri and started up again last year (age 44). Believing - rightly so! - that reduced drag is the quickest way to speed, I bought a TI book and video and drilled like crazy. Got my stroke down to around 12 per 25M. Felt great…but my swim times were bad. I was working on my own and not with the masters program…

So I abandoned the TI focus and used it only as some technique streamlining awareness and my swim times improved.

A couple of interesting notes, however: when I went back to TI after 10 years away, I noticed an entirely new vocabulary - and approach to swimming - than TI was earlier. I asked about how it developed on the TI forum. And then found that my question was taken off the forum! So I guess they didn’t want anyone to think that TI had changed or developed, but that they wanted to make people think that the “system” was a fixed solution just as it always had been.

Now go the latest issue of Inside T or Tri (I am not sure which) and Terry says in response to a question, that they have change the “vocabulary” again and it seems that the system has changed as well. He uses some pretty ingenuous arguements about people not understanding. But it is clear that he has continued to develop TI and evolved it.

So it appears that TI is not a fixed system with a set of concrete rules, but rather an evolving program that adapts to the needs of the marketplace and maintains its preeminance by good marketing and fitting in the context of the marketplace (new swimmers who need a solution). Personally, I think TI is great for new swimmers, and that has some value to experienced ones, but that the time in the pool makes a bigger difference for good swimmers than TI claims. However, as a business, they do a “great” job in context of the “marketplace” of triathlon.

13

“One of Larry’s theses is that TI ala Ian Thorpe is all wrong for triathlon swimming- you really need to be a strong kicker to swim TI fast.”

    • But as Laughlin points out, you’ll want those legs when you get OUT of the water. The race is never won in the water (trust me, I’ve been first out of the water many times) but it can be LOST there if you use up your legs.

I teach a method that is basically what Laughlin has quantified, and I’ve had some major improvements from my swimmers.

14

Here’s the link to one of Sheila’s articles. http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/swimcenter/sheila.html

There are several other good articles on swimming in the “Swim Center” on Slowtwitch http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/swimcenter/swim.html

My knowledge of TI is limited to what I have read in various debates, particularly on rec.sports.swimming

As someone who used to be able to swim really really fast, all I can say is that when I read about TI, I understand the gist of what they are trying to accomplish but most of it seems alien to me. While I swam competetively before TI was around, I have not read anything that TI advocates that would have helped me although I see how it may be of benefit to a beginner or someone with really bad technique. Personally, I think TI places too much emphasis on technique and not enough on getting stronger so you can actually apply proper techinique at speed.

Doing drills can only take you a little ways. At some point you need to really hurt yourself day in and day out by forcing yourself to use proper technique for as long as you can at speed. Ultimately it is work that makes you swim faster, not frilly play drills.

On the other hand, when I read Sheila’s articles, that is EXACTLY what real swimmers think about when they are thinking about swimming and her article is not unique, any former competetive swimmer could write basically the same articles.

15

Finally! Someone questioning the swimming gods! I really believe that there is a very strong “innate” component to being a good swimmer. Almost every time I get to the pool, I will experience my coached, studied, TI-technique being lapped by a barge, shoot, sometimes even people swimming vertically! The small improvement I have seen from three years of practice and enough drilling to strike oil could easily be explained by just swimming more and working harder. They say swimming is all about technique, but has anybody ever really been coached from being an experienced, crappy swimmer to a very good or excellent swimmer? Or was the person singing the TI praises already pretty fast? Or, in the case of someone learning to swim from scratch, was that person destined to be pretty good, no matter what technique he/she used?

16

join the straight arm cult…

  1. Ditch the glide phase

  2. Recover with a straight(ish) arm

  3. Pull as soon as your arm enters the water

  4. Practice straight arm swimming drills

You will be amazed how sleek and effortless step 4 can be.

17

the path of the righteous T1 is beset on all sides with iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost swimmers. and i will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to posion and destroy terry laughlin. and you will know that my name is the lord when i lay my vengeance upon thee.

18

Alternatives to this cult may the Branch Davidians, The Reverand Sun Yung Moon, The Thuggies, The Ku Klux Klan, that cult in California with the white Nikes- or some other dangerous fringe group with eccentric beliefs.

don’t forget the Wu Tang Clan!

TI seems to be a method to get non-swimmers in the pool. once you figure out how to not drown anymore, a master’s swim program is far superior.

19

as a former swimmer and swim coach, and someone who worked a TI swim camp once I’ll say that TI does help some swimmers.
I’ll also say go get a one on one swim coach who will help you, get in the water with you and place your limbs where they should be. Video’s, books, articles are good for 3 things.

  1. wiping your ass after you dump
  2. giving you enough knowledge to really go out a screw yourself up.
  3. help that lucky person(s) who have enough neuromuscular coordination to actually feel the difference between say crossing the midline with 3 of your fingers or two of your fingers when your extending.
    In my years of experience I’ve meet very few triathletes who could do that.
    Think of it this way you spend $300 on a swim coach who makes you 3 min faster in the swim, not to mention how that could improve the rest of your race or $1000 on a pair of wheels that gives you a minute to 1.5min tops.
    Ironically I know very few triathletes willing to do the former but many willing to do the latter. I haven’t swam since 1997 but my first day back in the water is august this already booked with a stroke coach.
20

I had to wipe my ass with a video once. Once. I still have the scar.

-bobo

21

How about Front Quadrant Swimming? I read these articles (http://www.usms.org/training/technique.htm) and switched about a year ago. It has some similarities with TI (I still use some of the drills) but is easier to get your head around in my opinion.