How aggressive were Mark Allen’s and Dave Scott’s bike positions back in 1989 (and further for that matter) during their epic IM Hawaii race when they ran 2:40 and 2:41 marathons, respectively? Were they riding steep or slack seat tube angles?
I’m curious if there’s a correlation over time between geometries/positions becoming more aggressive and IM marathon times dropping. Currently, the accepted zeitgeist is that you need to be forward/ride steep in order to run a fast marathon. How forward were Allen and Scott?
I’ve been on the forum for quite a while and I would have to say that is one of the best questions ever. Damn…now I have to go watch that race all over again to find out. What a revelation.
QR brought out the first tri bike n 1989 but I’m looking at a photo of Scott from 1989 and it looks like he’s on a road bike.
LVL has the third fastest running time and he rode slack.
If you look at the top ten fastest running times it’s Allen(89), Scott(89), LVL(96), Bernhard(96), Allen(95), Allen(91), Allen(92), LVL(99), Leder(98), Scott(96).
In contrast for the top ten women runners it’s Bowden(99), Bowden(01), Fuhr(98), Baker(90), Bowden(00), Smeyers(95), Newby-Fraser(92), Newby-Fraser(89), Zeiger (00), Fuhr(97)
.
I know that it’s impossible to come to any concrete conclusions as there are too many variables to consider (weather, technology, etc.). I’m just curious how forward those two were in that race when they ran so fast.
Both ran forward post putting the nose of the saddle about even with the BB. Dave a little more slack than Mark. I’d guess Dave closer to 76 degrees as was his set-up in later years. I recall hearing Mark’s bike that year was a 23lb tank. Ugh. I think the reason they ran so fast is because they had to. In recent times the guys haven’t been shoulder to shoulder. I think the guys like Reid, DeBoom, and Brown are capable, they just haven’t needed to. A win is a win. But I also think that performances like that are few and far between, which is why we still talk about that epic battle.
I’m looking foward to a race where one of the new generation of uber bikers, and contenders, like Bjorn go out and hold their margin leaving T2. (give him another year or two, it’ll happen) The rest of the pack will get info that they aren’t closing the gap and will have to lay down some serious run times to make up the deficit. Or… we’ll all be upping our bike miles and talking about how the race can be won on the bike.
If like me you were set thinking after seeing this thread, you might be interested in the response I got from “The Grip” on the subject:
"I think it was either a Schwinn or a Kestrel. But in any case, neither were
tri geometry. I never rode a tri specific geometry with a steep seat tube
angle.
Mark"
Now we only need to hear back from “The Man” but I’m guessing it would be the same.
I thought it interesting the fact that Mark stated that he NEVER rode a steep seat tube angle. Puts either the progression of things in perspective or just his ability!
Maybe he never rode a bike with tri geometry, the '89 bike was a Kestrel with Scwinn decals. Schwin actually owned Kestrel for a little while. but check out the coverage from the '91 race. He is riding the Huffy and is sitting on the very tip of the saddle. Davis Phinney, doing the color comentary even points out at one point that “Mark Allen is scrunched forward, knees banging his elbows”
I (and some training buddies) can remember turning my seat-post head around to a reverse position because I read that Allen did it…if memory serves me it was in the late 80’s.
We also experimented with the strap that Allen used that went around the stem and connected to a belt around your waist. Leverage sort of a thing. I think that was around the same time…give or take a year.
My trusty protractor-on-the-computer-monitor indicates 76 degrees to about the center of the seat rails. Also note that frame is/was fully custom so GT’s “standard” geometry would not have applied.
You can still get that bike. Tiemeyer Cycles builds pretty much that same bike, custom, he was the one that build the bike for GT (superbike).
If you’d really want to know the geometry of allens bike give him a call, I’m sure he was the one that built that bike, he did for Michellie Jones too.
By the way, he’s really nice guy and likes to talk bike!
I heard and read this comment before: “I think the reason they ran so fast is because they had to. In recent times the guys haven’t been shoulder to shoulder. I think the guys like Reid, DeBoom, and Brown are capable, they just haven’t needed to.”
Which I think is comical. It’s like saying that recent winners somehow take it easy or don’t need to run fast because because there is no one chasing them.
Anyway, the pictures that I have of Scott (see his book) and Allen from the 80’s are on road bikes adapted with aero bars.
oK, in the Bjorne Bike thread, I mentioned that Boardman’s World Hour record Corima looked like a precursor (sp ?) to the P3. Now looking at Allan’s project '96 GT, this bike looks identical to the Cervelo P2 (the one before the P2K) with the fairing under the BB, cutout and all…
Allan always road steep for all his Ironman victories, but did it on road bikes.
