I have thought of angling my bars up just a little, more cuz I woulod think that it would be a little more comfy. But with the article in Trimag with Jason G. and Bjorn that in some situations my be more aero.
So what I am curious is there many out there that have their aerobars angled up? I am not looking to do it at extreme as Landis or even like Potts at hawaii.
angling your arms up for the sake of angling them up can potentially make you slowwer. Up isnt always faster. it was for bjorn, wasnt for richie. What we have been seeing in the wind tunnel is that as we bring arms and shoulders more narrow, a slight upward angle relieves shoulder strain. The key to being fast is narrow ellbows and shoulders and being comfortable, a slight angle up can make the narrow position more tolorable. We will be working on that more with our FITaerolab work in the next few months.
thanks, initally I wanted to do it for comfort. But thought it make be more aero as well
it may and it may not be. testing is the only way you will find out. angling up however does allow for a narrower arm position to be more comfortable, and narrow will alwasys be fast.
narrow will always be fast.
that’s something i hope to be testing soon on track. i want to find out if it’s reall true for everyone, because my guess is that as long as your arms fall without the width of your hips, your CdA might not decrease significantly because as the air passes your ultra-narrow arm position it also has to pass your hips.
my guess is also that having your forearms parallel instead of forming an “arrow-tip” (i.e. hands almost together but ellbow 15-20 cm apart) will reduce drag. but then again there is no wind tunnel here around vienna, and you might have tested that already…
it may and it may not be. testing is the only way you will find out. angling up however does allow for a narrower arm position to be more comfortable, and narrow will alwasys be fast.
I have always been told this by bike fitters.
However, Bradley Wiggins seemed to have his arms quite wide apart in the Olympics. See:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/imageBank/w/WIGGINS%201.jpg
Now I’m confused!
thx for the pic, that’s what i mean. the forearms are parallel but don’t necessarily need to be close together as long as they are within the width of your hips. the ITM nivola is an excellent aerobar of that type (beside being the lowest, which makes it perfect for aggressive geometries on small frame sizes) with extensions and pads both set widely apart
Hey Jason, noticed that in the side view of Bjorn in your Triathlete article his heel is really low at the bottom of his pedal stroke. Does he ride with a pretty low heel through the pedal stroke? I’m in the same boat and keep debating raising the saddle but it does feel a bit more powerful keeping the low heel position as I can put quite a bit more power into the upstroke and especially over the top of the stroke although it takes a bit more core stabilization to do so. Any Ridleys around;)?
You should see the size of the box that is heading your way- more goodies came in today! Frames next week!
ya Bjorn tends to ride with a heal low at the bottom of the pedal stroke- fairly throughout actually. Mobility and stability in your core is KEY!
It is near impossible to ride narrow on the track-
Narrow elbows, narrow shoulders, get your head out of the wind. All key to going fast.
perfect example:
Narrow will always be more aero than wider. You want the air to go around your arms not through your arms into your chest. You want to direct the wind away from your torso, not parachuting into it. Narrow elbows, narrow shoulders. key.
There are always individual differences, When I was talking to Steve Owens of Colorado Premier Training he said when they had David Millar in the tunnel they found bringing his elbows in together actually increased his drag, it may be the same for Wiggins. (is that a British gene? )
I have found narrow and hands slightly higher works best for me from my field powermeter tests.
Kevin
here is another great pic of someone fast that has figured out that narrow is fast
I was at the shop today explaining this exact concept to someone getting fit on their new bike. His initial response “this isnt comfortable” and “I have to run after the ride” my answer to him, and I have said this many times both here, in articles, workshops and during fitting sessions- the best time trialers and triathletes in the world all work very hard to make the unnatural natural. Almost everyone who attempts to set up their position like this and use narrow arm and shoulder placement will come back after the first few rides uncomfortable saying it cant be done. One needs to be patient as it takes time to first train these techniques while working on shoulder mobility and stability. When it does become tolerable and eventually comfortable, the results will be in faster bike splits at significantly less efforts. People want to go and “buy” more speed. This is perhaps the best way to gain free speed. Our testing data from wind tunnels shows as much as 2 min for 90k in free speed. People who think that taking time to train themselve to go narrow training mobility and stability is not worth ~2 min over 90k, well, I wont comment on that. (not saying that you said that).
Narrow will always be more aero than wider. If there’s one conclusion I’ve reached when it comes to the aerodynamics of time trialing, it’s that when one starts talking in absolutes, I generally stop listening…
I did my dissertation on the aerodynamics of the praying mantis position and my basic conclusion was that a slight upwards arm angle is likely to be aerodynamically beneficial for the majority of riders.
The reason, according to my models was not that it diverts air out from the high drag chest region, but that it makes the air flow downwards in front of the arms and not between as you get with horizontal arms.
I also found that a more muscular upper body would reduce the time savings (possibly resulting in a worse overall drag) from adopting the mantis position.
“Almost everyone who attempts to set up their position like this and use narrow arm and shoulder placement will come back after the first few rides uncomfortable saying it cant be done.”
Ahh…the genesis of most of the horrid positions littering triathlon bike courses today! I am always astounded at people who can bend over and touch their toes but yet claim they somehow aren’t flexible enough to ride in a decent aero position.
As you said, Jason…comfort comes with training.
I did my dissertation on the aerodynamics of the praying mantis position and my basic conclusion was that a slight upwards arm angle is likely to be aerodynamically beneficial for the majority of riders.
On average, how much of an arm or aerobar angle qualifies as “slight”? 15 degrees?
Thanks,
Gene
My thing used 10 degrees as the minimum and that’s the value that lots of people have suggested.
I reckon that some people could probably get away with 5degrees though.
I’ve been planning to give this a try and will use your recommendation as a baseline. Thanks!
Make sure that you test it though and let me know how it goes!
NB. as you rotate the arms, the head drops, so you might need to raise the bars a little.