This post stands in sharp contrast to your own words on this forum – “We started out testing everything exactly the way he raced, then started making changes. Giro sent three talented engineers to start getting ready for some serious aero efforts on their future helmet lines and to help improve Lance’s helmet further, if possible. As I said earlier, the numbers don’t lie, and the new Rev 5 did work better…a little. But its real benefit is in evening out the drag for any head position Lance assumes, which relates to real speed on the road. We all worked some more on helmet shapes, and there’s more cool stuff coming in the future. How much faster is this helmet? Remember Troxel’s three feet they were so proud of? Try one and three-quarter miles over that same 100-mile ride.”
It also stands in sharp contrast to my own experience, and the experience of many other athletes on the forum, both in the real world and in the tunnel.
I refuse to believe that an aero helmet is secondary to hand-width. My own experience, as well as what I’ve read, totally disagrees with this.
…with the Rocket helmet, you tend to get a distinct whistling sound when the tail is up or sideways.
– jens
Jens, I was under the impression that the whistling sound was louder when I was in a GOOD position…like when I was concentrating on making sure the tail was as close to my back as possible. I have a pic from the 1/2 at DATT a couple weeks ago, it looks like my head is in a pretty decent position relative to my hunched back. I was definitely hearing the whistling the whole time (unless I look straight down, in which case, it is silent).
Jens, I think John is referring more to your typical MOP ironman athlete who is going to ride at 18mph and likely to see greater yaw angles. Their gains are probably not going to be the same, everyone is different.
I have a LG rocket and will use it at the Soma 1/2 this fall, I dont know if it will save me much time but I am working on holding my head position on long rides, it seems comfortable and I dont get hot, plus it looks fast!
It was only one of a number of things on the priority list. It was a choice between testing 6 things at 0 yaw or just one or two things at multiple yaws.
If I ever go to the tunnel again, I probably will test multiple yaws, especially given your recent comments anent the quasi-superman position. Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone granting me free tunnel time like they do for you.
John Cobb doesn’t sell aero helmets but he does sell aero wheels! You figure it out. Same guy who used to say that Hed Tri-Spoke is the fastest front wheel until he had a falling out with HED and then the Zipp 404 became the fastest front wheel (before Zipp 808 and the other 60+ mm deep wheels).
This is the relevant part of the article, for all who are interested:
“2. Equipment
A common misconception about equipment is that of the order of aerodynamic importance for aero-gear. Most think that the frame matters the most, wheels next, and helmet last. Some even think that the components come before the helmet. In reality, a well designed aero-helmet will save you more time (power) than anything else. The drag difference between a vented road helmet and an aero-helmet is 2-4 times larger than the difference between a good aero-wheelset and a 32-spoked wheelset.”
Of course, some of that will change with positioning (how flat the helmet lays on the back, etc.) and how able you are to hold your position consistently (likely you will be out of the bars more often for an IM vs. a TT), but even if it is merely EQUAL to wheels, it is a huge asset.
I’d like to see head down vs head up vs traditional helmet data. I like riding with my head down facing the front wheel, with my eyeballs rolled up to see down the road . Every time I see my reflection in a store window doing this (OK, neck slightly rolled sideways), the line from the top of my head through my spine is relatively flat. If I have my head up, the position is relatively horrible. So really, I look and feel most aero with my head down. Now if I wear an aero helmet, and pick my head up to keep the tail flat, I am introducing my entire head to the airflow. But if I have my head facing down, then the aero helmet tail sticks up a bit (I just bought the Louis Garneau Prologue with the shorter tail). Some people have mentioned that even with head down/trail up the aero helmet offers superior benefits over a traditional helmet as it assists in laminar airflow over the back and it has a cleaner front end than a vent laden traditional helmet. Can someone point out anything to this effect.
My experiments on sample size n=1 on a descent I do in training, shows a terminal velocity that is ~ 2-3 kph higher (68/67 kph vs 66/65 kph) on six different occaisions, regardless of head down or up. For the record, with the LG Prologue and shorter tail I can never get it to touch my back (head up or down)
You should be able to position your helmet on your head, even with your head-down/eyes-up, in an appropriate position. I know that both of my aero-helmets (LG Rocket and RP Syton) offer far more “tilt-adjustment” (not really sure what else to call it) than my regular road helmets. I know I can position them low on the brow or high on the forehead, and they still fit comfortably. I know where I need to position my helmet to have it be “level” relative to my back, and I don’t have any trouble doing that with either helmet, but I also notice that I could make them level with the ground when I am in the hoods as well.
The tail does not need to touch the back to provide a benefit. Merely, it needs to be low to the back to provide the MAXIMUM benefit. I think the “fullness” of helmet vs. ventilation is a reasonable trade-off. A “smaller” helmet like the prologue might be a better helmet than the rocket for a hotter course, where the increased heat inside the helmet would be a bigger factor.
In response to your Some people have mentioned that even with head down/trail up the aero helmet offers superior benefits over a traditional helmet as it assists in laminar airflow over the back and it has a cleaner front end than a vent laden traditional helmet. Can someone point out anything to this effect. I don’t have any data, but I will say that fundamentally you’ve hit the nail on the head as to part of why they work from the standpoint of basic aerodynamics. What you’ve brought up is basically the same as the helmet-cover or tape-over-the-helmet scenario, which is obviously going to be 1) more aerodynamic and 2) less vented.
I have a Chrono (thanks again to the fellers at A-Z with smaller domes than me that passed on it), and I find that I am slightly faster with it vs my regular Bell road helmet. Here’s my q for ya (and Rappstar, or anybody else who cares to pipe in) - for somebody who doesn’t hold that perfect position tail-down w/ their head 100% of the time, is the Chrono a better choice, as it seems that the minimal tail would penalize me less for when I’m looking down than say the Rocket.
Or do you think the Rocket would be faster all around, just less so when looking down?
I’m debating on wheter I wanna pony up for a more aero aero brain bucket, or am I fine with what I already have, for my purposes? (IMLP)
I was gone all day and just read this and yes you’re right, the Troxell was 2 -3 seconds faster, it was a 6am typo, I’ll try more caffine. The part about the aero helmet being over a mile faster was reffering to Lance’s TT helmet that was not legal to be raced in Kona anyway. Remember that this was in 2000 or 2001 and there was a big difference in road helmets vs a pure TT helmet, LG and Rudy helmets were not on the market then. My point is, TT riders have different needs than MOP Ironman racers. If I was working on a racer that is just doing a 40k TT then several areas change and yes helmets are an important part of that. I still think that for most Triathletes, wheels offer a dependable gain in performance over variable and often hilly race courses. I also suspect that at most TT’s if the racers had to choose between Deep/Disc wheels/std helmets vs 32* std. rims/aero helmets, there would be a pile of aero helmets at the starting gate.
Please explain what you suggest is the best hand width as stated in your post above. Should the hand be together? Close but not touching? Seperated and blocking the knees?
I think that that you have stated that elbows can be as wide as the hips but should the hands (and forearms protrude straight or angle inwards so that they come together or what?
Interestingly, if you look at recent UCI TT’s, there are a lot of shallow front (albeit with disc rears) wheels being run with aero helmets. Jan Ullrich and several other T-Mobile racers come to mind. Of course, their Uvex helmets are ALWAYS on their back.
You were talking about Lance’s TT helmet. But, I remember reading a Bell/Giro press release (quoting YOU) that stated that the Rev VI (which WOULD be legal in Kona) was actually even FASTER than the Rev V (which would not be), despite having crash protection, so the idea that a protective helmet is somehow slower is obviously false.
TT riders do have different needs that IM racers, but I think the differences are largely related to positioning and it’s effect on nutrition. MOP riders are on the bike a lot longer than a FOP rider, which means aerodynamic savings can be much more beneficial in terms of net time (even though they are a lower percentage). MOP riders are generally wattage-challenged, NOT positionally challenged, relative to the pros.
Testing will give the final answer. hand position can vary over a large range and is effected and effects several areas. here is what I found over the last couple of years.
Riders with very flat chest, broad, square, shoulders, flat backs with good lower back flexibility and proportionally larger thighs can do well with hands extending straight so the forearms shield the thighs. The forearms should be level or just down depending on final power test.
Riders with rounded chest, square shoulders, muscular upper body, rounded back, do well with a gap of 1-1.5" between the hands, this gap helps accelerate the air over the stomach and out around the hips.
Women with most any amount of chest will do better with their hands as close as possible or overlapping. A track build woman should look at the straight arm setup.
Riders with round chest, rounded or “sloped” shoulders, flat backs, should overlap or be very tight with narrow elbows.
There are several other combinations but elbow width effects breathing and narrow hands or almost overlapping are always a safe bet. Overall front end drop effects the ability for hand position to move air out of the stomach area.
I know, I know… We don’t need to have this debate again. The rules SAY one thing, but they are not enforced in Kona. Hence Faris riding the UVEX helmet (not legal), Peter Reid riding the Specialized (not legal), Tim DeBoom wearing the Bell Meteor (not legal), Timo Bracht (I think) riding the Giro Advantage (not legal), etc. etc. So both the Bell Meteor AND Giro Advantage have been raced in Kona. Steve Larsen wore the Bell Meteor, so the rules are not just ignored for pros. There were several AG’ers wearing CEN-certified helmets, which are technically against the rules.
It seems like the officials have been way more strict this year about the helmet thing, though. At St. Anthony’s they checked every single helmet for a CPSC sticker! Have the races you’ve done this year been looser on the rules, or is Kona always more relaxed on the rules?
