Aero Frames & Wind Angle

This is in response to Dan’s review of the Storck in the latest Inside Tri (or maybe it was Triathlete). Doesn’t matter, we all read both. Anyway, the Storck has round tubes, in similar fashion to Scott carbon frames and all Serottas. The question that Dan raised is about why a TT bike would have round tubes, and should we just throw away all the wind tunnel data that says airfoil tubing is better? I mean, look at Lance. His TT bike has aero tubes, so doesn’t that mean it is faster? The question that gets raised, and which Storck’s designer, whose name is also forget (remind me not to post away from my magazine archives) is that the data for all these aero TT bikes is based on 0 degree wind angle. Which made me question “WHY is that?” I have wind angle data for 0, 5, 10, 15, and 30 degrees for every Hed wheel. If 0 degrees of wind angle, which is head on, was all that mattered, there wouldn’t be any need for a disc wheel. (Compare Hed Disc 0.404 @ 0 deg to Hed Alps 0.406 @ O deg). But at 30 deg - Disc 0.233 vs. 0.415 for the Alps.

But log on to Trek, Cervelo, Cannondale, or ANY OTHER manufacturer and show me the wind angle data for the frames? Somehow, it appears that it doesn’t matter to them. But, it does. I will pick on Cervelo here for a couple of reasons. Vroomen and White are engineers who should know better, that is my main reason. They test all wind angles, but don’t show it to you. They just show an “average.” And second of all, they only go up to 15 degrees of yaw, instead of 30 like Hed. There is a reason for this. It is related to the “true NACA airfoil” section of Cervelo tubes. Regular airfoils, like the nice ones that keep the planes in the air when we fly to far off races, are meant to work in a very limited range of angle of attacks. For the purposes of bicycles, yaw angle is the same as angle of attack, since the airfoil tubes are turned sideways. When you get up past 12 - 15 degrees, a NACA airfoil stalls. This air no longer flows neatly around it. So while your Hed disc shines at 30 degress of wind angle, your fancy Cervelo airfoil tubes are stalling out, creating drag, and giving you zero aero benefit. To simplify what a stall means for the purposes of this board, a stall means the air is pilling up and bouncing around the tube, not flowing neatly around it.

So in the high crosswinds of the Kona Coast, where you might think an aero frame would be at its best, it is really at its worst. So why then, do people ride aero frames? Why would Lance do it if it wasn’t faster? It is not that it isn’t ever faster. In a no-wind environment, it will save time. And the faster you ride, the lower the effective yaw angle becomes for a given crosswind. At 30 mph - Lance speed - in a 5 mph crosswind, the effective yaw angle is 10 degrees (arctan(5/30)*180/PI). So you are still within the operating parameters, but if you are doing 20mph instead of 30, it becomes 15 degrees, which is the beginning of the stall range of most NACA airfoil sections. And all of that data on NACA aifoils is for clean, laminar flow. Last time I checked, there is no NACA airfoil designed to operate behind a bicycle wheel and bicycle fork. For Lance, who rides unbelievably fast, it may make sense for a lot of situations. But to buy a bike because of it, doesn’t make a lot of sense. Aero frames certainly work in the zero-crosswind environment of a velodrome, but on the Queen K? Perhaps not… Peter Reid won the race last year on a nice round tube Specialized. Round tubes can be turned for better comfort and vertical compliance than an aero frame can. And with the realistic gains from aero tubing being less than what many people believe, don’t shy away from a nice round tubed bike like the Storck instead of an “aero” tubed bike like a Cervelo.

I am sure that I will get all kinds of angry retorts quoting John Cobb’s tests and stuff like that. But much as I like John Cobb and respect him as a fellow engineer, he is not without error. I would like to point of the Oval Concepts Jetstream fork. How many stages were won on that thing? My guess is that the fundamentals of aerodynamics that went into designing the fork were sound, just like the fundamentals of designing an aero tubed bike initially seem sound. John is a brilliant guy. However, the reality is that it doesn’t measure up. Just like in reality, an aero frame isn’t really as aero as you might think.

Aerodynamics on a bicycles is all about air management of the whole system. That is why the new Zipp 808 works. They realized that designing an aero wheel was no good if you didn’t take into account what happens when you stick a tire on it. A simple thing, but they were the first to do it. I wish they would give more data on drag profiles, especially with different tires, but they address the real system of a bicycle, rather than trying to apply aerospace technology and claim it works on a bike. Hed does this as well on the H3. The “spokes” on the H3 are not airfoil shaped (they are symmetric - the leading edge is no thicker than the trailing edge) like they are on the Corima 4spoke or the XLab wheels, but the H3 is faster. I wonder if they tried an airfoil spoke, but then shied away because it stalled out in high crosswind. Either way, nobody complains that the H3 should have airfoil shaped spokes.

An interesting argument, and proof that technology is often being pushed because of image rather than results is shown on the Velomax website. Velomax answers the questions “Why doesn’t Velomax use bladed spokes” here (velomax.com - This website is for sale! - velomax velo max Resources and Information.). The answer they give is:

Simply stated, a profiled spoke in a static or head-on air stream can be very effective. However, a profiled spoke in a side wind is a propeller.

A round spoke always presents the same small profile to the air stream, whether the angle of attack is head on or from the side. When you consider the wind direction, speed of the bicycle, and rotational speed of the wheel, it becomes apparent that there is an alphabet soup of aerodynamic considerations happening throughout the course of the ride. For this reason, we believe that swaged (butted) spokes present the best real-world aerodynamic profile.

However, if you look at their deep-V wheels, the Tempests, velomax.com - This website is for sale! - velomax velo max Resources and Information..
It says “Spokes - Elliptical aero profile stainless…” What is going on? Didn’t they just tell me that aero spokes weren’t worth it? My guess, people weren’t willing to buy an aero wheel without “aero” spokes, so tthey were forced to succumb to market demands, even though they know the technology doesn’t support it. Fortunately, they don’t give a little blurb saying the spokes help, but I was still upset to see them on there.

Hed gives us data on all their wheels for a variety of real world scenarios (0-30deg). Shouldn’t the frame makers do the same? 30 degrees of wind angle is a realistic number, shouldn’t the guys at Cervelo admit that the bike is less aero in that range?

Another minor complaint against Cervelo is that the airfoil section that is shown is always cut perpendicular to the leading edge of the tube. However, the downtube of the bike is never put at a 90deg angle to the wind, so the cross-section should be cut parrallel to the wind approach angle, which it is not, which means that section is no longer the same airfoil that they showed you. Kudos to Vroomen & White for not just making an airfoil-looking tube like a lot of guys do. But, guys, if you are going to make a claim, make it 100% true. How much harder would it be to make downtubes that had a proper airfoil section when cut at an angle of approximately 45 degrees (or whatever the downtube angle is)?

To say something nice about Cervelo, I will say the P3’s rear wheel cutout is an example of rear aero, since it is clearly shielding the leading edge of the wheel. And the rear entry dropouts allow you to maximize that benefit. So clearly, they are thinking men. Which is why I wish they would own up with all the data, instead of just the stuff that makes them look good.

Anyway, hope this generates some good discussion, and sheds some light on why some of the German uberengineers continue to build round tubed tri bikes instead of electing to build “aero” tubed ones.

ATAN(5/30)*180/PI() = 9.462322.

I am sorry, I rounded up to 10, instead of down to 9.

And you can claim 17 degrees is the critical angle of attack (stall angle) for NACA airfoils.

So hopefully that will allay an concerns of exactness.

A few remarks:

  1. As you may know testing is expensive so we adjust the angles we test at to the purpose it serves. We somtimes test up to 25 degrees, sometimes up to only 10 degrees (if we have CSC riders in the tunnel and we have limited time and only Tour de France time trials to worry about, that may be the worst they will encounter. for our comparitive data on all the models, we take into account angles up to 15 degrees, simply because we have some but not all frames tested beyond that. I cannot compare data from a P3 that is tested up to 25 degrees with a One that is only tested to 15, I have to compare them with an equal range.

  2. A table is only 2-D, so we have to make a compromise. if we show all the angles, it becomes impossible to show the results for various Wattages and positions (well, we could, but each would have to have a separate table and the ensuing confusion would probably hurt more than it does good).

  3. The shape of an airfoil does not change then it is cut at an angle, only the aspect ratio changes. The simplest example of this (but it holds true for all of them) is the double-0 series of NACA airfoils. A NACA 0020 airfoil has the exact same shape as a 0030 airfoil, the only difference is that the 0020 has a thickness-to-chord ratio of 20% and the 0030 has 30%. You can get the 0020 from the 0030 by simply stretching the 0030 by 50%, or by putting a tube of 0030 at a 30 degree angle. Of course we could put our airfoil shape on our website at all 26 different angles, but the shape is the same, only the amount of stretch changes so there is not much point.

ON TOP OF THAT, the picture on the website is just a general illustration anyway, it is not exactly the airfoil we use. We’re not that stupid, at least we force our competitors to buy one of our bikes if they want to copy it. And many have.

  1. You are absolutely correct that NACA profiles have its limitations for bicycle designs. Delaying the moment where the airflow stalls is I would say the biggest part of our work in the tunnel. Of course once it stalls all the bikes basically have the same drag, so the aero frame is overall still faster as it combines “non-stalling and stalling course stretches”. How big these respective stretches are depends on the riders speed, the wind angle and the exact airfoil shape. That’s why our new airfoils are no longer NACA profiles, but profiles designed specifically for the bikes. The shape of the WOLF fork and R2.5 seatstays are examples of this, and other examples are soon to follow. Obviously this is a lot of work, and work on our latest round of airfoils (for a soon to be revealed new model) was started about three years ago. But I think the end result will address many of your concerns.

  2. Nothing against Zipp, but they were not the first to take the tire into account when designing the 808 rim. Both HED and Zipp have been doing that for at least 10 years. And with regards to the whole system, we have been doing that for years as well. We develop our forks to work well with both deep section and 3-spokes, we design the crown shape to work with the reverse airflow in that area, etc.

  3. The reason this particular bike has the tubes it has is that it was designed as a road bike. Then they slapped aerobars on it so they could get a test in Triathlete. And the reason a lot of German bikes have round or almost round tubes is that in order to sell bikes, you need to get a good test in TOUR. And the only way to do that is to build an ultra-stiff frame. There are no points for aerodyanmics in TOUR, only for stiffness and weight factors. I am not trying to say these are not important, but if you think the focus is too much on aerodyamics in some cases, it is too much on stiffness in Germany.

This is a great post. I’m not an engineer so don’t have a technical math background, but I’ve certainly wondered about the questions you are asking. Good response from Gerard. Keep this one going guys. This is good stuff.

That is a tremendous reply. I probably should have put in that I want to pick on Cervelo because I think they are smart enough to reply and actually answer a bunch of these questions. I do really like your bikes, and I would buy one tomorrow except that they have integrated headsets, which I believe to be the biggest engineering bungle in the industry, but that is another story, and Chris King does a good enough job explaining it himself.

  1. I know the testing is expensive, so that makes sense. You are guys are in business to sell bikes, not educate the world on aerodynamics.

  2. I agree. And there is no way anybody could test what happens if you got wind blowing down on you from over a hill, but that is a real world scenario, but of course it doesn’t make sense to test it. So I agree that you have to post results in a consumable fashion.

  3. Again, yup. So I shouldn’t have picked on that. It isn’t like you told me that it was a 0020 on my downtube and it was really a 0030. I was just bemoaning that you didn’t show the picture as the downtube really is cut. But of course, it doesn’t matter. But I will say I am sorry for picking on that one, since I wasn’t being truthful when I said that the airfoil section wasn’t right when cut.

  4. But the aero tube is more subject to crosswinds, because more surface area is subject to crosswinds than on a round-tube, right? Which is kind of a non event, since if you can’t control the crosswind’s effect on your frame, you have other problems. But what about the tradeoffs on designing a tubeset for aerodynamics vs. lateral-stiffness/vertical-compliance/etc? Do you optimize aero first, and then address the FEA data on stress? Wait, I don’t think you can answer that question without giving away trade-secrets. Anyway, as much as you can talk about how you juggle aero vs. structural design considerations, I would appreciate it. That is really my own personal reason for owning a round-tubed bike, since I’d rather ride a bike tuned for my riding and optimize my own aerodynamics.

To address your the news of your new bicycle specific airfoils, I simply say “wow.” I am not suprised it was you guys first, but I am impressed nevertheless.

  1. Here I do plead guilty. I guess I should have said they were the first to really publicize their work with tires as part of the wheel. I don’t imagine any designer was silly enough to design a wheel without putting a tire on it. And the P3 is proof of your whole system design, but I am happy to know that you have even more cool tricks in store.

  2. I agree that stiffness is overrated. Flex can be a good thing. I am sure that will get lots of abuse. But it is. That is why even downhill racing skies have some spring and camber to them, because you can take advantage of properly tuned flex. Stiffness has its place, but a frame that doesn’t flex at all wouldn’t be very good. That is why I tried not to say frame-stiffness as a total thing. If you want to get into discussions of wind-up and the ways that frame flex can be useful, I am happy to. I guess I should get a real job and stop being a triathlete so much, but that isn’t too much fun. So until then, I guess I’ll have to pester you Cervelo folks.

Anyway, thank you for the detailed, informative, and well written response. I do like your bikes. I never expected to get a response, and I don’t know if Trek would have if I had picked on them, but I guess it worked out that I kept mentioning Cervelo. So thanks a whole bunch to you for giving us that info. And again, as much as you can share on the whole aero vs. structural design considerations I would appreciate it.

Re. Integrated headtubes: With all due respect, the Chris King piece is just fearmongering. The Integrated headset threatens their business (and they make very nice headsets) but if done properly the integrated headset does not have the problems they claim. From the thousands of frames with integrated headset that we have sold, we have never gotten a single one back with IHS problems. And if there ever is one, it would be covered by the warranty anyway. It is correct that it would likely be tough to fix the headtube if something happened to it (which is also true for non-integrated headtubes by the way), but that is my problem, not yours. It means I cannot repair the frame but instead would have to replace it. But like I said, we’ve never had to.

Re. 4: You are correct in the notion that the cross wind has an effect, but the effect on the front wheel is such a multitude bigger than the effect elsewhere on the bike, that is a bit of a moot point. I’d rather ride a full aero bike and rear disk with a Zipp 202 if the next hurricane hits DURING IMFL than a round tubed bike with a 202 rear and a 303 front.

As for the weight, stiffness and comfort drawbacks of aero frames, of course there are some. It’s why a Soloist is a bit heavier than an R2.5 (even if both were the same material). butthe stiffness and comfort issues can be addressed to a largde degree through tube design.

  1. I can see King wanting to protect their business. But at the same time, they could make a IHS system. My real questions is, what advantages, if any, are there to the IHS? Is there real aero advantage? Or is it strictly cosmetic? I just have never seen anybody say a “yes” for the IHS in the same way that King says “no.” Nobody seems to have any substantive reason for making an IHS vs. not doing so.

Re: 4, I hope I didn’t imply that crosswind effect on a frame was anywhere near as strong as on the front wheel or rear wheel. Total surface area on the frame is much smaller and it is evenly distributed. Plus nobody worries about tuning their aero-riding position for crosswinds (or do they…), and that certainly also has an effect. Just trying to work through it all in my mind.

And since we have moved onto general engineering questions, I have another one. What is your reasoning for adopting a compact style geometry on the Soloist and R2.5? I know that the compact geometry lightens the weight of the frame and increases the stiffness. But what about the decrease in stiffness of a longer seat-tube? A longer seat-tube clearly has more flex that a short one since it is basically a long lever. So did you find that the increase in frame stiffness outweighed the loss of stiffness from a longer seat-tube? I do 99% of my riding while seated, so having a frame that is super stiff for out-of-the-saddle sprints is not a concern. I want a frame with stiffness optimized for in-saddle riding. Just curious as to what made you pick a compact vs. traditional frame.

And one more… You discuss the EFBe testing of the R2.5. I responded to a post once by a bike mechanic who said it was possible to ride an aluminum frame indefinitely if well cared for telling him that wasn’t the case. Of course, aluminum has a fatigue limit, unlike steel or titanium, meaning that it will eventually fail if stressed enough. I would guess that the carbon-epoxy matrix is somewhat similar, but perhaps I am wrong. Since I am sure you did the math behind it, my question is how does a year of riding say 10,000Km correspond to cycles in a stress test. I know the R2.5, which is carbon, is EFBe tested, but did you test any of your other frames. Any idea what the true lifetime of an aluminum frame is? And does the carbon frame ever wear out due to break-up of the matrix? I am just curious if you have done any research on this.

Thanks for your posts.

Last years (former) world tt champ used a very unaero looking frame that looked very much like a road bike with tt bars. He seemed pretty fast on it, the epo might have helped a little bit though.

I own a cervelo, but for the most part, companies tell you what you want to hear and triathletes and roadies (they think they aren’t but they are) are suckers for hype. Just look at mavic and the popularity of the ksyrium amon roadies; it’s even more remarkable seeing as how mavic makes another rim (the open pro) that when built to an ultegra hub is just as light, half the cost, and you won’t have to wait 6 months to rpair a broken spoke.

“Of course, aluminum has a fatigue limit, unlike steel or titanium, meaning that it will eventually fail if stressed enough”

steel and titanium will also fail if stressed enough. Steel will rust out before a decent aluminum frame reaches a fatigue limmit. A 7series aluminum frame will be have corroded to powder years before it reaches it’s fatique limmit.

A steel or ti frame that has been welded really isn’t gonna last much longer than an aluminum frame, it will brake at the welds.

Re. IHS, King could of course make one but the question is, could they sell one. Given the market conditions I would say no. The IHS has no aerodynamic advantages in a standard frame, though there are situations in which it would allow you to get the set-up more aero than with non-IHS bearings (again, just around the corner).

Compact frame design increases the bb stiffness slightly, but it decreases the torsional stiffness. So that is something you can play with depending on which stiffness you need to boost a bit at the detriment of the other. All the other three thousand reasons for doing it are mostly marketing hype. There is no weight benefit, all the savings end up in the additional seatpost weight. As for stiffness, the seatpost is definitely more flexible if it is longer, but there is no real problem with that. Seatpost stiffness does not really have an effect on power transfer or anything, just a little bit on comfort.

All our frames pass the EFBe tests, Alu, steel and carbon. Will a well-designed Alu frame last forever? No, it may fail after 300 years. Does that matter? No. Will a Ti or Carbon frame last longer? Not likely given the pitfalls of manufacturing with those two materials. On top of that, if a frame fails through fatigue, it is annoying for the owner but it is unlikely he/she would get hurt and if the frame has a lifetime warranty, no damage is done. The story is different with frontal impact strength, and that is a mode in which purely based on the material Alu is much better than the other materials. Frontal impact strength can also be designed into a carbon frame, but it requires a lot more time and effort than in an Alu frame. And unfortunately time is not something companies seem to be putting into their carbon frame development these days, everybody is in a mad dash to get a carbon frame to market in no-time because carbon is hot.

Neither steel nor titanium will fail when repeatedly stressed, unless there is a stress riser. This is basic materials science. It has to do with crack propagation. And with the exception of all non-round tubes, all tubes are welded. On a Litespeed, where the tubes are built from flat stock, there is a weld the length of the tube. You just don’t see it. So exactly which weld are you talking about.

I was not asking for something deeply insightful like “a 7 series aluminum frame will have to be corroded to powder before it reaches its fatigue limit.” If it is 300 years, it is 300 years, but I was mostly hoping for an answer like “10,000KM per year is about the same as 1,000 cycles.” But maybe there isn’t an answer like that. Obviously it depends on wheels, tires, pressure, spoke tensions, etc. etc., but I was just curious if anyone had really done any research.

Not to be too hard on you “Ben in FL,” but I was hoping to avoid the normal posts of peoples opinion versus proven fact. A Cervelo frame that has passed EFBe has fact behind its claim that it will last a long time.

I definitely agree with the companies telling you or selling you on what you want to hear. My Velomax paradox shows that. How can a company that goes into detail about why they don’t think aero spokes are good then put aero spokes on a set of wheels?

Yes, you can get a lower stack height with a IHS, but I don’t think most riders minimize (or need to minimize) the stack height. If they do, they should probably settle for a more comfortable position, and stop trying to look like Bjorn. So, Gerard, the question remains, why did Cervelo switch to the IHS? Or am I taking the no answer as market demanded it because people saw it on other bikes, assumed it was good, and you didn’t want to be left out? Selling bikes is certainly a legit reason, assuming that you are willing to back-up the potentially faulty design (however rare the possibility, it remains a possibility) with a lifetime frame warranty.

Second, you still didn’t say why YOU chose a compact frame. Litespeed made the Ghisallo compact so that a medium size frame would be under 2lbs. Of course, it was stupid since the net weight with the longer seatpost was the same as if they hadn’t made it compact, but then they couldn’t advertise a “sub 2lb. frame” and it is all about conception. (Incidentally, I’m pretty sure it’s also the reason the Ghisallo does NOT have an IHS, since the headtube needed for an IHS is marginally higher, and they are at 1.99lbs.) I’m hoping there was a legit reason for Cervelo to do it, but maybe you just like the way it looks. Specialized touts all the “benefits” (marketing BS) and adheres strictly to it for all frames, but Cervelo doesn’t. So why the choice to make the Soloist and R2.5 compact?

And regarding fatigue, I agree that it is probably a non factor. I just wondered if anyone had tested it. But to say that it is annoying to owner is maybe a bit light. If my rear seat stray fails from fatigue, I could be more than annoyed, but I doubt that would ever happen, so let’s not dwell on it.

I’ll agree that frontal impact strength, for hitting a pothole or, on really bad days, parked cars is more important. But I would like to know where you get that frontal impact strength on aluminum is higher than on steel or titanium? Aluminum is not stronger than steel. Strength to weight ratio in certain configurations? Sure. But overall strength, no dice. You can make steel, ti, or aluminum strong enough for a bicycle, but no way aluminum is definitively the best. Tube geometry and frame geometry are going to be the major factors there, not materials. If I have to start building models and posting FEA graphs from ProMechanica, I will. So please, let’s place nice with each other as real engineers. I am not some guy who just likes to read textbooks I checked out from the library.

And yes, everyone wants to make a carbon frame. And everyone says theirs is the best. Just read the “white paper” at Calfee Design, which isn’t a real white paper in the technical sense, just a bashing of other manufacturers and a promotion of Calfee. I don’t see any real technological evidence for buying a Calfee. That is why I not sure I’d want a frame with a carbon BB shell or carbon lugs. I’m not sure I trust most bike manufacturers to do the work required to properly orient the fibers at high stress joints. A bike with 1 under-2 over weave main tubes joined by metal (and therefore isometric) lugs, sure, I’ll buy that. And if a company can provide any kind of research on the design that went into orienting the fibers in the lugs, then maybe. But most people are building carbon bikes like they are made of Reynolds 753 steel, only the lugs and tubes are carbon (or alumnium in the case of some lugs), and instead of brazing rod, they use epoxy. Don’t get me wrong, it works to build a bike, but it isn’t exactly cutting edge technology. But at the end of the day, neither is a bicycle, at least in comparison with something like an F1 car.

Quote, “The “spokes” on the H3 are not airfoil shaped (they are symmetric - the leading edge is no thicker than the trailing edge)”

Rappstar,

I don’t know about your Hed 3 wheels, but mine are not symmetric. The leading edge on my Hed 3 spoke is thicker than the trailing edge! Maybe you should check yours. Maybe your front wheel is mounted so it revolves in the opposite direction Steve Hed intended it to rotate.

Just in case you think I’m mistaken, when I called Hed about whether my wheels were seconds or regular production that met their specs, I asked about the leading edge trailing edge difference that I noticed on the wheels. The person I spoke with complimented me on my observations and indicated that most people do not notice this. She said there was indeed a leading edge and a trailing edge and they were different and that to achieve the full aero benefits of their wheels, you needed to mount the front wheel in the correct orientation. FWIW.

My H3s are definitely asymmetric. I rode with my H3 front in backwards once in a TT. It made a distinctly different sound. Though average watts were higher, my time was worse (could have been wind or baro pressure, too though).

-Jens

both ti and steel will fail, just like aluminum, you just have to stress them right.

My dad will be shocked when i let him know that his lugged steal frame is really welded.

I don’t know too much about abg’s ti tubing manufacturing process, but any welded frame is only as strong as it’s welds, doesn’t matter which weld. Thinking about it more, abg might use sheet stock to make it’s aero tubes, but i’d be amazed if they made their round tubed bikes that way, especially becuase that would add a lot of weight, weaken the frame, and make it very tough to end up with a good looking, round tube.

A lab test can only tell you that a frame can withstand x number of revolutions with x amount of a force. This cannot translate into an estimated amount of road miles.

In regards to your last statement, passing a lab test doesn’t translate into durability on the road, so cervelo doesn’t have “fact” that it’s frame will last a long time. You can only be given opinion on that matter. It has proof that it’s frames will survive repeated applications of stress in a lab environment. If a frame is strong enough to pass those test, your only worry is crashing, a poorly welded frame, and corrosion. Of those, the only one that you can really predict is corrosion, and it is a fact that certain alloys are less resistant to corrosion than others.

i am some guy who get’s books out of a library, and they are every bit as legit as the ones you wasted your money on in college, so drop the elitist deuchbag attitude and check out some books on metal alloy compositions and characteristics.

Based on your ramblings, you are not a good engineer, if you are really even one at all.

Quote, “My dad will be shocked when i let him know that his lugged steal frame is really welded.”

Ben in FL,

I’m sure he will be surprised, I would be too. Most steel lugged frames are brazed, not welded. That’s one of the main reasons lugs were used. So the frame wouldn’t need to be welded. There is a distinct difference between welding and brazing steel. Much lower temperatures, for one.

I should know. 3 of my bikes are lugged steel frames, a Bianchi and two Serottas.

yep, i’m not sure if you cuaght the sarcasm in my post, but your further explanation is a good one.

Gerrard and rappstar,

Thanks for the inteligent post. It’s nice to read some real aero info for a change. Aall my classwork and wind tunnel time is coming back to me. I knew there was a reason i bought my Dual (Thanks Gerrard).

Try this one on for size!

If i’m riding a point to point time trial with the wind coming say, 20 degrees from the right, could i benefit from a frame made from an asymetric NACA airfoil?

bw