Aero Equipment tirade

Triathlon Forum
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I am following up on my post in the thread about Cobb’s aero fork. I have read the article, and it seems clear to me that the Cobb aero fork is heavier and only significantly more aero than the Kestrel EMS fork, not any other aero fork tested. I am now 100% sure that it’s not worth the money thanks to Willet’s article.

My tirade had more to do with the fact that the numbers given are slightly misleading. No, I am not going after anybody. But, I think something needs to be made clear. I do not think that all of these improvements can be put together. These forks, wheels, handlebars, seatposts, etc., cannot make the bike ten minutes faster on a 40K before a pedal is turned. I think some people actually think that if they get a fork that saves 1:40, a front wheel that saves 2:00, a handlebar that saves them 1:00, and a frame that saves them 1:00, that they will be automatically be 5:40 faster on a 40K TT. If that were the case, people wouldn’t even have to turn the pedals, get onto a bike and don’t pedal for 5:40 of the bike portion.

I have no doubts about the new parts saving time over traditional parts, but it is only just part of the big picture. I have no problem with the testing protocols, or even the numbers coming up, but unless I am missing something here, it seems to me that the savings needs to be averaged out (rather than added together). I am unsure if I am getting my point across (sometimes I feel like I sound like English is my second language), but I think some things need to be cleared up so that people can make better purchasing decisions. When I see some of the times of the pros with the equipment they are running, it makes me wonder.

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<–Not confused by your argument at all, Bunnyman. Your logic is spot on. There is one small exception, though: If you eliminate the bike altogether you can reduce your 40k time to 00:00!

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Wasn’t the new Cobb fork designed to comply with new UCI rules? Perhaps it’s not the lightest or the most aero, but it is compliant? I agree 100% with your rant about aero equipment, but maybe in this case your’re comparing apples and oranges?

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All the fuss about aero forks and then people put their computer sensors on them. Same thing with aero frames and mounting water bottles.

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I am not an engineer but I would be supremely surprised if you could add up your aero gear in a linear fahion… If I know anything about grag is that it changes in an exponential fashion not at all the simple addition that people are doing…

The point that you make about the Cobb fork… unless you are doing UCI sanctioned races… there is no way that it is worth the money… parhaps Cobb should turn his skills to making a non-UCI fork which would appeal more to the triathlon audience.

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I’m looking at the cover of the new Endurosport catalog…there’s a picture of Lisa Bentley riding her Cervelo P3 at IMNZ this year. Large water bottles behind the seat, a large water bottle on the aero downtube, a homongous bottle between the aerobars (with fat straw), and a very large computer sensor on the Cervelo aero fork. Interesting.

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On www.timetrial.org (aerodynamics section) they point out even more “claimed” time savings of aero gear:

Aero Priorities “What is most important?” - From what I have read and the aero data that I have seen I can make the following list of priorities for a time trial bicycle and the rider. These numbers are fully debatable and represent only my opinion. They were gained from various sources and in most cases represent a rider at 30MPH over a 40K course. Time savings for these upgrades over 40K:

  1. Drop Bars >> Riding integrated Aerobars - 4 Minutes
  2. Shorts/Jersey >> Skin Suit - 2 Minutes
  3. “Box Style” 32 spoke wheels >> Aero Wheels (deep front, disc rear) - 2 Minutes
  4. Round Tube Frame >> Aero Frame/Fork - 1 Minute
  5. Standard Road Helmet >> Aero Helmet (Louis Garneau) - 30 seconds
  6. Adding Shoe Covers - 10 Seconds

Time saved over 40K with all the upgrades listed above: 9 minutes 40 seconds! Now you see why being aero is important.

Now, that said do I actually believe that I will be automatically faster? Well yes, I know it to be true.

I will point out a race I had last weekend. It was a 5 mile hill climb time trial. Half the course was flat or downhill and the other half was a 6-7% climb.

I was #6 out of the chute, #5 was also in my category (did not know it at the time). He left 30 seconds before I did.

I was the only sap there to use a full time trial bike with trispoke, disc, and aero helmet/skinsuit. Just about everyone else had a standard road set-up. When asked “why the wheels and bike, it’s a hill climb TT, would’nt lighter wheels/bike be faster?” I replied “well I dont know, but half the course is flat or downhill, and my TT bike is not too heavy at 18 lbs with the aero wheels … I guess we’ll see.” I truely did not know the outcome of the aero gear.

The guy in front (with standard road bike/helmet/kit) went off and I started my clock. 30 seconds later I was rolling. I got into the aerobars and ran the heartrate to the roof. I could see the guy, 30 seconds in front of me in a rolling/straight lined course.

I caught him at the 2.5 mile mark, right before the 2.5 mile climb. I passed him and then the climb started. He passed me back about 1/3 the way up the climb and took back 10 seconds to complete the TT 20 seconds off my time. If the hill had been longer he might have made up more time, he as climbing faster than I was.

We were both CAT 4’s, guess what? The aero advantage played out pretty significantly. He got 2nd place, off by 20 seconds to some crazy guy on an aero bike.

That said, I’ve got another TT tomarrow morning … it’s raining so I guess I’ll go ride the trainer now. Got a new frankenstien project going, put a Zipp carbon brake on the front and a homemade beveled carbon front stem cap for “aero-ness” and “Gucci-ness”.

Its half show and half tech.

Oh yeah, all the aero gear makes a difference, however it varies ineffectiveness from race to race depending on wind, etc.

Good luck to the WF racers today.

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the Mtn TT, road bike as aero as possible with bars to base of climb then ditch the helmet, bottles etc etc as he started the climb…

The longer the flat the more you’d have benefitted from your set up, the longer the climb it probably swings the other way…

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no doubt, my buddy’s 15 lb Ghisallo would have been nice for the climb!!

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"1. Drop Bars >> Riding integrated Aerobars - 4 Minutes "

Gary, your numbers are WAAAY too optimistic. Read the Vision tech site. The integrated aerobars will make a difference of only about a minute over 40 kms over a drop bar/clip on areo bar. A bullhorn/clip on isonly marginally faster than the drop bars. This testing for Vision Tech was done by Jim Martin so should be considered credible.

I’d also question the skin suit making a two minute difference.

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Sorry Gary, I forgot to post you the Vision Tech url http://www.visiontechusa.com/visionaero.asp
.

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I dont think that the numbers are too off, look, riding on standard road bars versus riding HED aerobars is likely a 4 minute difference over 40k.

Your positioning alone is where the speed gains are made.

A skinsuit is very important, in fact I got the number from Nike/Cobb/Postal, who say even that the new Nike Swift skinsuit will save an additional minute when compared to a standard skinsuit over 55k:

http://www.uspsprocycling.com/02news/tdf02_0707_do.htm

In yesterday’s prologue, most of the team wore a new Nike-designed skinsuit that was very similar to the skinsuits worn by the very successful Dutch and U.S. speed skating teams at the Salt Lake Olympics. Designed by Nike’s Eddy Harber, the idea was set in motion two years before the Sydney summer Olympics and goal was to, “maximize athlete velocity,” said Harber. “We carried on the project for Salt Lake City where we sponsored the Dutch and American teams and it was calculated to have a 1.3 seconds advantage there and that gave us all the long-track men’s gold medals. The technology is based upon the use of texture in the way a golf ball uses texture to break up the boundary layer closest to it. The air that is flowing over the object is separated later and you have a small wake at the back of the object. The thing that’s new that we are doing is putting different textures in different body parts in relation to their size and velocity, and all the seems are lined with the airflow so none of the seems cross the airflow.” The results? According to Harber, over a 55 km time trial at 53 kms per hour, there would be a calculated savings of one full kilometer - over one minute - by using this new suitsuit compared to the team’s skinsuits from last year, purely based in terms of drag reduction.

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I also think that Bunnyman has a point, that while the suit in theory saves you a minutes it’s somewhat inconceivable that all of these individual savings add up as he illustrated.

It might be that the total savings are less than the sum of the parts.

Dont get me wrong they all make you faster just that I cant believe that they are all savings added together.

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who knows, it showed in that last hill climb TT though. Its more important in TT than in Tri, would’nt you agree? Anyway, fitness is king - blows all the aero stuff away as far as speed gains.

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“riding on standard road bars versus riding HED aerobars is likely a 4 minute difference over 40k.”

OK, I think I know where you’re coming from. The Vision Tech site refers to drops/clip-ons and you’re talking drops only. According to the Vision Tech site if you’re on a road bike with drop bars but riding on the clip-on aero bars the integrated aero bars will save a minute or so. If you’re on drops only the difference is four minutes according to your stats. Are we in agreement now?

BTW, it’s amazing just how clued out some of the roadies are. One of the guys in our roadie group told me he can get just as aero on drops as I can on aero bars. He also doesn’t believe that frames or wheels make much difference on a TT. Realize this is a guy that used to train/race with Steve Bauer back in the 80’s. He’s now just a fast master’s club rider, but you’d think he’d be more up to date.

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STEVE LARSEN IS THE MAN

Anyway, we are in agreement there - 4 mins. saved - but there’s more … riding in the drops is way more aero than riding on the hoods, but riding in the drops for long periods is tiring and probably not likely over a 40k anyway.

the TT guys I train/race with (when I’m not flying solo) are masters level and know TT which is to say they like all things aero (some ride Hooker bikes even). Traditional non-TT roadie types are less likely to care about aero stuff because they race crits and road races (draft legal) … compare them to UCI triathletes - aero matters little.

Just finished frankenbike. Got the Polar HRM glued to the stem, got the Zipp brake mounted to the fork after some rigging work and the carbon fairing on the Deda stem faceplate which is attached to the HED (legal?? hmmm - but it matches and looks Gucci!) … all ready to roll for manana’s TT.

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If he’s been around that long you’d think he’d at least heard that obviously obscure fact from the '89 TDF where a rider managed to erase a 50 second deficit to win the race in the final time trial. The difference? Aero bars.

Its easy to be hard, but hard to be smart!

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I actually agree with you on its importance and would say at the front end of the pack its equally important in tri.

Its no different than swimming, Thorpe would be Thorpe with or without the skin suit and so would Lance and I dont doubt it makes them faster, its just when you’re that fast its going to be pretty hard to attribute a certain amount of that speed to one factor alone i.e. the skin suit.

We agree though.

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All those numbers are advertising BS. Probably made up by the sales department who’s only research was to see what the competition was saying and trying to top it. I honestly can’t believe the rediculous claims that are quoted from advertising copy. Last year when researching for a new bike frame, I was told by someone on the phone at one of major tri bike manufacturers that his seatpost cut-out and horizontal dropoouts were worth 2.5 minutes over 40k. When I hung up I decided there was no way I would buy a bike from such a liar. Come on, the only real guaranteed way to get faster is to train harder and train smarter. You can’t just hang something off your bicycle and get faster by magic!

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actually there’s more to the story than that.

Fignon used dual discs which negatively affected his handling on the technical and windy course.