Advice Needed - Run Improvement / Injury Prevention

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m not one to start new threads, but I couldn’t find much information specific to my “problem” in a search, so here goes.

My running needs help. By that I mean, I need to understand how to first and foremost prevent some recurring injuries that have been plaguing my performance, and secondarily, improve my running economy and speed. I am 32/M, 6"2 and 180 pounds (~170 during summer racing), and the upcoming 2015 tri season will be my fourth. I was an elite competitive distance swimmer for 16 years including high school and college. I took some “time off” from ages 23-27, which means I only did strength training and some cardio to stay in shape from all of the beer that I drank. I don’t feel like I am a “natural” runner as I am built like a swimmer and have only been running seriously for a relatively short period of time (5 years).

About 5 years ago, I took up running for a competitive outlet and a change of pace. My first half marathon in 2010 was a 1:41. I broke my leg in an accident in 2011. In 2012 I started running again slowly and ran a 3:45 full marathon. In 2013 I dropped my HM to 1:32 and full to 3:17 (NYC - hard course) after upping my mileage consistently and adding in some speed work.

In late 2013 I developed a minor case of Achilles tendinitis which sidelined me for about 5 weeks. In late 2014 (September) I was forced to DNF in a HIM 2 miles into the run after developing a case of bursitis in my ankle (same foot) and again had to stop running for about 5 weeks (now just starting to increase my mileage). I am still unclear what the cause of these injuries are - maybe I over trained, maybe I am too heavy to be a fast runner, and/or (more likely) my running form is terrible.

My goals are two-fold as stated above, 1) reduce my propensity for injury, and 2) run faster and more economically. A more concrete goal would be to HM in under ~1:25, and bring my Oly run sprint to 37/38 minutes from current best of 41:44 (all else equal - swim/bike fitness, course, effort leading up to the run, etc). My best standalone 10-K time is just above 41 minutes but this was in central park with limited training (don’t run them standalone very often)

After thinking through my options, I’ve come up with the below:

  1. Incorporate more strength/stretching/drills into my routine from references I find online. I admit all three of these are currently lacking from my training to a certain extent.
  2. Get a gait analysis / bio-mechanical analysis from a running lab (either in person or online via video) with professional recommendations for strength training, stretching, and form improvement
  3. Get a running specific coach throughout the winter that can help with form and training (right mix of volume, speed work, etc)
  4. Get a tri coach that can help me with exercises, form and training (right mix of volume, speed work, etc)

I live in NYC.

I am not sure if #2 is worth the money or would help. I’ve found some places online that look legit, but I have no frame of reference. I am willing to get a coach, but unclear if it will actually help me run faster or reduce my chance for injury. I don’t have a problem with motivation and will rarely miss workouts when I self-coach, but I do think I could probably train SMARTER with one (in the past I have just used advanced training plans from Beg Triathlete / Trainingpeaks).

I would like to devote my winter to improving my run culminating with the NYC Half on March 15th which I feel would lead me into a good tri season.

Any recommendations/advice (harsh or not) is welcome. Maybe I am just not a 38-minute Oly split type of guy and never will be - but I feel like it can’t hurt to try :slight_smile: I’ve gotten 2nd in some local sprints (~58 min) and my current Oly best is ~2:11. I know I can drop a few minutes by improving swim & bike fitness (easier), but I feel like I need to drop 3-4 minutes in my run (a lot harder) in order to approach the 2 minute barrier and stay competitive for a chance at the podium in my AG.

Thank you

2

Maybe I missed it, but didn’t see anything about how your run training looked. My immediate inclination is that you try to do too much too fast after getting the go ahead to run again, causing repeated injuries.

3

A lot of good info but nothing about how you train and how you trained when you got injured.

4

I think we’d have to see what you run training looks like. I’d be wiling to guess that you running too fast most of the time, inconsistently and too much speed work for a triathlete that has to also train the bike. More specifically, you running a lot on fatigued legs… and running fast with poor form. Run analysis when you rested is useless. Injuries happen due to what happens when your 4 miles into a 10k after swimming and biking for about 80 minutes before T2.

5

Thanks for the reply Rick. During the fall for marathon training I was running between 45-60 mpw, and during the winter for maintenance / half marathon training I would be doing 25-35 mpw. This would generally consist of 1 long run, 1 tempo run, and 1 speed run (400, 800 or mile repeats) per week, and then 1-2 easy runs. Typically I would follow a cookie cutter plan i just found online. For tri training this summer and last I followed an Oly & HIM training program that was somewhere around 25-30 mpw and included the same mix of training. Interestingly enough both of my injuries came at the end of my training cycle: Achilles came right after my NYC marathon (the week AFTER; the marathon was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back) and the bursitis came randomly 1.5 weeks before my HIM in September following an intense brick (but I had been running hard for more than 5 months at this point). My doctor/PT didn’t provide much insight into the cause of my injury. Now I am running just ~15-20 mpw with no tempo/speed work but with the intention to slowly build this in the next few weeks.

Edit: For marathon training I would only do one speed/tempo run per week and was focusing more on volume.

6

What about shoes?

For ankle/achilles stuff I often find that the wrong shoe type or old shoes tend to cause issues.

As others have mentioned, it could also be a fatigue and form break down that causes things.

I normally will not incorporate any true interval work until the last block where the V02 improvements will stick in the short term but will include strides and tempo work throughout training.

And I never brick for the express reason that I would rather see quality over quantity.

7

Most folks that I know that can run fast, just do not allow themselves to get hurt.

What has worked for me is just to run 20 to 30 miles a week, 3 days a week, all year long. No speed work, just 1000 feet of hill climbing per 90 minute run. Stay healthy for a few years, and you will get faster.

I also believe my powercranks on my bike trainer have helped a lot, and will see how an ElliptiGO helps.

.

8

I think we’d have to see what you run training looks like. I’d be wiling to guess that you running too fast most of the time, inconsistently and too much speed work for a triathlete that has to also train the bike. More specifically, you running a lot on fatigued legs… and running fast with poor form. Run analysis when you rested is useless. Injuries happen due to what happens when your 4 miles into a 10k after swimming and biking for about 80 minutes before T2.

Thanks. I posted a rough outline of my training in another post just now. I don’t doubt that my form probably breaks down when fatigued and is a major contributor to the injuries I’ve experienced. My first injury came from pure marathon training and the race. However, I’m sure the concept is the same - injuries happen while effort is high after fatigue sets in at mile 20. In terms of remedy, do you think working with a coach to target a more tailored training plan is my best bet? Whatever is the lowest-hanging fruit - introducing the right mix of volume/speed, improving technique - I will happily try.

9

What about shoes?

For ankle/achilles stuff I often find that the wrong shoe type or old shoes tend to cause issues.

As others have mentioned, it could also be a fatigue and form break down that causes things.

I normally will not incorporate any true interval work until the last block where the V02 improvements will stick in the short term but will include strides and tempo work throughout training.

And I never brick for the express reason that I would rather see quality over quantity.

I run in a pair of Asics 2110’s (or the equivalent newer model). I go to my local store and get a new pair every 6-9 months depending on my volume. The injuries have come towards the end of this “shoe cycle” so you may have ID’d a major contributor here. I feel like the advice I am receiving from everyone here is telling me I need to probably get a coach to diagnose and then work towards a resolution to my running issues.

10

What about shoes?

For ankle/achilles stuff I often find that the wrong shoe type or old shoes tend to cause issues.

As others have mentioned, it could also be a fatigue and form break down that causes things.

I normally will not incorporate any true interval work until the last block where the V02 improvements will stick in the short term but will include strides and tempo work throughout training.

And I never brick for the express reason that I would rather see quality over quantity.

I run in a pair of Asics 2110’s (or the equivalent newer model). I go to my local store and get a new pair every 6-9 months depending on my volume. The injuries have come towards the end of this “shoe cycle” so you may have ID’d a major contributor here. I feel like the advice I am receiving from everyone here is telling me I need to probably get a coach to diagnose and then work towards a resolution to my running issues.

I’ll chime in on a couple of things that I see. First, the shoes. I’ve never been able to get to 300 miles on the Asics 2xxx’s (whatever model they’re on). Whenever I got above 260 on those she’s my achilles and calves would start barking at me. I moved to the Nike Structure (16, 17 and now 18) and get into the 400 miles now.

Also, I don’t know why you ramp up and ramp down your volume. That alone will cause some amount of training discomfort. I would rather see you consistently in the 35-45 MPH with a slight ramp up for marathon cycles.

Lastly, once you can run 5-6 times per week for 6 weeks, then throw in some intensity once a week. When you have 2 months of daily running, come back for some advice on specific workouts. Otherwise, spend the winter learning how to become a daily runner.

11

Do you run with heart rate? I would recommend that - keep your HR below the level set by Maffetone’s formula while training. This definitely worked for me from the injury prevention perspective.

12
  1. reduce my propensity for injury, and 2) run faster and more economically.

Concentrate on one goal, then after you have consistently achieved it for 12-18 months switch to the other goal. If you focus on injury prevention (which might mean strength/stretching/technique drills) you’ll probably get quicker anyway. After 12-18 months when you’ve really dialled in the details on how to maintain your running consistency you can throw in more speed work to make further gains. If you don’t have a coach it will be impossible to decide what to do in the middle of a session when you’re feeling good (you’ll ask yourself ‘do I stay in Z2 and get the run consistency banked, or shall I do some tempo efforts to build speed?’). That would be a recipe for failure.

Of the options you came up with, don’t do all of them at once or you will get conflicting advice. Find a running/tri coach that has dealt with athletes like you before and then do what they say. Do a few track sessions with them, or gait analysis and do whatever they suggest. You questioned whether a coach would help you achieve those two goals, but that’s exactly what you’d paying them for.

From a n=1 perspective I found that adding strength a couple times a week (lunges/squats/etc), more stretching, more foam rolling, adding neuromuscular warm-ups to speed sessions all seemed to help stave off injury.

13

I’ll chime in on a couple of things that I see. First, the shoes. I’ve never been able to get to 300 miles on the Asics 2xxx’s (whatever model they’re on). Whenever I got above 260 on those she’s my achilles and calves would start barking at me. I moved to the Nike Structure (16, 17 and now 18) and get into the 400 miles now.

Also, I don’t know why you ramp up and ramp down your volume. That alone will cause some amount of training discomfort. I would rather see you consistently in the 35-45 MPH with a slight ramp up for marathon cycles.

Lastly, once you can run 5-6 times per week for 6 weeks, then throw in some intensity once a week. When you have 2 months of daily running, come back for some advice on specific workouts. Otherwise, spend the winter learning how to become a daily runner.

I have probably not been as diligent with shoe replacement as I should have been. I’ve been replacing them by “feel” but that is probably a very poor indication of support. In terms of shoe selection, I’ve just always done what’s comfortable. However, that might not be the right criteria, scientifically speaking.

In terms of consistency and frequency - I feel like I have been fairly consistent except for, of course, the periods I’ve had to sit out for injury. The past 2 winters I have been on half marathon training plans (4 days per week, ~35 mpw) and transitioned into tri volume during the summer (maybe closer to 30 mpw average due to increased swim & bike) and then upped it to 50+ mpw for the fall of 2012 and 2013 during marathon training, for which I religiously ran 6 days per week for about 4 months.

So, I’ve been running consistently (except for two 5-week periods) for the past 2.5 years. I’m not convinced that the quality of those miles (in terms of proper pacing & form) have been ideal for my particular situation however. I could have been doing too much tempo/speed work, too fast. I suppose a sit-down session with a coach is the only real way to tell.

14

Do you run with heart rate? I would recommend that - keep your HR below the level set by Maffetone’s formula while training. This definitely worked for me from the injury prevention perspective.

Yes, I do. I usually try to keep my HR in line with whatever is prescribed during the session (corresponding to zones, etc). Again, I’m not having anyone else analyze this so I’m sure I’ve been overtraining at times and not recognizing it.

15
  1. reduce my propensity for injury, and 2) run faster and more economically.

Concentrate on one goal, then after you have consistently achieved it for 12-18 months switch to the other goal. If you focus on injury prevention (which might mean strength/stretching/technique drills) you’ll probably get quicker anyway. After 12-18 months when you’ve really dialled in the details on how to maintain your running consistency you can throw in more speed work to make further gains. If you don’t have a coach it will be impossible to decide what to do in the middle of a session when you’re feeling good (you’ll ask yourself ‘do I stay in Z2 and get the run consistency banked, or shall I do some tempo efforts to build speed?’). That would be a recipe for failure.

Of the options you came up with, don’t do all of them at once or you will get conflicting advice. Find a running/tri coach that has dealt with athletes like you before and then do what they say. Do a few track sessions with them, or gait analysis and do whatever they suggest. You questioned whether a coach would help you achieve those two goals, but that’s exactly what you’d paying them for.

From a n=1 perspective I found that adding strength a couple times a week (lunges/squats/etc), more stretching, more foam rolling, adding neuromuscular warm-ups to speed sessions all seemed to help stave off injury.

All good advice… thanks. The most daunting aspect of this is figuring out whose advice I should take, and what drills/strength/stretching to incorporate. Following my runs I go through a whole host of stretching/strength exercises prescribed from my PT, but I’d like to also work in exercises that will have the dual effect of injury prevention and range of motion/speed. I know this contradicts the “concentrate on one goal” idea, but as you note, speed should come as a secondary effect of an injury prevention routine.

16

It sounds like you’re on a decent track. As long as your goals are clearly prioritised and you don’t jumble up that priority then you should be okay.

The good thing about a coach is that you just follow their advice and ignore what everyone else is saying. The downside is that you have to pay for that!

To add on to the plethora of other advice you’re probably trying to sift through, I’d say to have a separate session dedicated to strength/stretching. If you’re putting them on at the end of your runs, the temptation is to rush through them or skip them. If you dedicate a whole session to strength and stretching you can have the focus be on figuring out what is tight and what is weak and working from there. You probably won’t get to that level of understanding of your body if you’re doing it at the end of a run session. You can measure your flexibility like you can measure your running progress, and see if it’s improving. Additionally, by lifting separately to running you might find you can lift heavier and address weakness more effectively.

Mix it up every 4 weeks measuring along the way and it’ll become clear what is working

17

For me, 3 hard runs is too much for me. You’rE faster than me and run a bit more, but my trick this year has been to eliminate most of my hard runs and try to get to 6.5 runs per week. 3 months in I’ve never been faster. I also try to run with a higher cadence (approx 170-180spm)

If I were you I’d take all intensity out for a month or two, increase number of runs per week . see how you go, and then reevaluate in the spring.

I imagine you’ll hear lots of similar stories as 100 in 100 days progresses and there are more converts

18

Another thought as I read more of your comments. . 4 runs a week and 35 miles is more than I can handle… but it’s what I used to do too that led me to injury. Keep same miles and add 3 more runs… reducing avg mileage per run by 40%

Your entire story could be mine exactly up to this point. … hopefully your ‘fix’ can be similar to mine

19

The good thing about a coach is that you just follow their advice and ignore what everyone else is saying. The downside is that you have to pay for that!

Tell me about it! I don’t need a coach for motivation, but now I feel like I do in order to train smarter and prevent injury. But in the end the $$ is worth it if I can run consistently and in the end run faster.

I do all to most of my stretching following my runs, and occasionally do strength training separately and/or with the masters swim team that I belong to. But your suggestion to focus on stretching and measuring flexibility and making it a priority is a good one.

20

For me, 3 hard runs is too much for me. You’rE faster than me and run a bit more, but my trick this year has been to eliminate most of my hard runs and try to get to 6.5 runs per week. 3 months in I’ve never been faster. I also try to run with a higher cadence (approx 170-180spm)

If I were you I’d take all intensity out for a month or two, increase number of runs per week . see how you go, and then reevaluate in the spring.

I imagine you’ll hear lots of similar stories as 100 in 100 days progresses and there are more converts

Thanks - I just went to that thread and read about the challenge. Somehow I had missed that before even after lurking around here for a while. In any case next week I will start making a a gradual progression up to 35-40 mpw and trying to run 5-6 times per week rather than 3-4. Only problem is work has been getting in the way recently and it is REALLY tough to get this frequency in along with the swimming and biking maintenance that I’m doing. Maybe I’ll try to fit some runs in at lunch.