Advice from fishies - training technique over fitness - how long?

Triathlon Forum
1

Fishies,

Terribly slow swimmer here - 50yr old female - swimming for about 2 1/2 years mostly self taught. Spent the last 16months in Masters swim 3x/wk and did not improve much at all. So have officially ditched that out of major frustration and have started working with a coach 1x/week on technique only. Have major technique flaws (no surprise there) but at least now I have something to focus on for improvement.

Reading the threads here on ST - it is pretty clear that swimming well is “100% fitness & 100% technique” (forget who said that). The question I have is as I try to relearn how to swim, how much time should I devote to technique over endurance?

For now, as I try to master technique (rotation, timing of breath finish stroke, kick, timing of kick), should I just do 25s and focus on one aspect of swim at a time to ingrain good habits?

Right now, when I swim longer than 50, I find myself right back where I started and I really want to get away from all the bad habits that have become ingrained over the past 16months of just swimming lots with bad form but am worried about losing fitness.

So my Q - if my long term goal is to get this swimming thing down, should I just swim 25s for the next few months? When should I start doing longer swims? I do plan to get in the water 4-5x/week for 30-60min a session. Long term goal - Olympic/half distance - but will probably stick to sprints this summer - maybe one Olympic if I can get some confidence in my swimming.

I am a FOP athlete in my age group at local sprints - thanks to big improvements on the run (am a cyclist) - but I come out of the water in a panic and in almost last place and then play catchup the rest of the race so I really want to get this swimming thing down!

Thanks for your help fishies!

2

What can you do …lets 5x 100 in? What would be your avg time per hundred?

3

From a non-fish (FMOP/BFOP):
-do 25s and 50s while you work on technique
-do band work and LONG kick sets to maintain some of your fitness. Band work can help with your catch as well.

4

My .02 that you can disregard as necessary.

Swam competitively for 15 years through college and then coached at the collegiate level. Asking swimmers how to learn to swim is like asking Michael Jordan how to play basketball. They just don’t remember that phase anymore. Fishes were generally teen and childhood swimmers. You can’t replace that. Ever. Stop trying. I will never run like a teen and childhood runner, I just focus on improving on where I can. Putting on raw miles without technique just gets me hurt and beat down.

There was a great thread earlier in the week where someone did a Vasa trainer and technique focus and saw massive improvements. This may not be your path but I think that it has some interesting lessons. Technique can get you a long way for a great 50 or 100 time. Past that you must have swimming fitness and strength. Strength is the missing link for so many. Swimming takes an incredible amount of strength in places that most normal people would never have built strength, goes back to that teen and childhood swimming thing. I think that focusing on technique while working on swimming strength is a great option. Tools like the Vasa or TRX can be great help in building core and shoulder strength. Remember elbows up!

Last but not least find a swim coach or former swimmer that you trust and can work with you for the long term. This person needs to understand that they can pile on yards but for you it is just reinforcing bad habits.

5

You should not devote time to “form over fitness”. You shall work hard and while working hard focusing on perfect technique. It is easier to hold a good and sound technique if you are swim fit. You can do some more technique-related stuff that still works your swim fitness though like 3x500 pull descend with a snorkel and focusing on a great catch, right into 10x50 on whatever start intervall and swim fast with a strong pull AND strong kick, making sure that your last 2-3 intervals are the fastest. If this is not possible, well you lack the fitness to hold technique and then you need fitness, not necessarily more technique (even though better technique makes you faster at the same RPE, but so does fitness).

6

Fishies,

Terribly slow swimmer here - 50yr old female - swimming for about 2 1/2 years mostly self taught. Spent the last 16months in Masters swim 3x/wk and did not improve much at all. So have officially ditched that out of major frustration and have started working with a coach 1x/week on technique only. Have major technique flaws (no surprise there) but at least now I have something to focus on for improvement.

Reading the threads here on ST - it is pretty clear that swimming well is** “100% fitness & 100% technique”** (forget who said that). The question I have is as I try to relearn how to swim, how much time should I devote to technique over endurance?

For now, as I try to master technique (rotation, timing of breath finish stroke, kick, timing of kick), should I just do 25s and focus on one aspect of swim at a time to ingrain good habits?

Right now, when I swim longer than 50, I find myself right back where I started and I really want to get away from all the bad habits that have become ingrained over the past 16months of just swimming lots with bad form but am worried about losing fitness.

So my Q - if my long term goal is to get this swimming thing down, should I just swim 25s for the next few months? When should I start doing longer swims? I do plan to get in the water 4-5x/week for 30-60min a session. Long term goal - Olympic/half distance - but will probably stick to sprints this summer - maybe one Olympic if I can get some confidence in my swimming.

I am a FOP athlete in my age group at local sprints - thanks to big improvements on the run (am a cyclist) - but I come out of the water in a panic and in almost last place and then play catchup the rest of the race so I really want to get this swimming thing down!

Thanks for your help fishies!

Credit goes to Jason on that quote.

I have never swam a masters workout but I am learning more and more from threads/responses it is a hit or miss with how much coach involvement you get. Don’t worry about losing fitness. I feel you are correct in that you need to address technique to get any better if after 16 months you have not. So, if we need to take one step back to get 3 steps forward well you get the idea I think.

I do not think you will need to stick to 25s for months and months but I think you are correct in that you should start small and then move up. This is the perfect time of year for technique development. Find the coach that you trust and listen to them. Ask them questions. What his/her plan is for you on the next few months to get that stroke technique you want. Do they do video analysis? It is such a huge advantage to see yourself. As for the other days of swimming, I would stick to the 25s and 50s. Do more 25s than 50s for 2-3 weeks but still do the 50s. Then do more 50s say after week 3. Throw in a few 100s and see how it goes week 3 or 4. Have a rest interval in the beginning that allows for adequate recovery so that the next swim is not overcome with fatigue to the point that technique is failing. Once you have that interval down with the technique, test yourself by dropping 5’ or 10’ off the rest interval. Its a progressive build. We are always telling ourselves to hold form/technique when we swim. After a few weeks of 100s, try some 150s or 200 sets.

As you get tired in your sets, get a pull buoy to raise your legs or perhaps fins to help. Do a kick set. Paddles are nice to feel the water and if your hands are “slipping”. I am not a fan of a snorkel but some like it.

Once again do not worry about the fitness aspect. You will not lose as much as you think. Most of all, have fun with the process. Remember it doesn’t come overnight but I think you’ll be kicking butt again next season no worries.

Good luck!

7

Same boat as you; earlier this year couldn’t even swim a 50 without major problems. I got one on one coaching, about once every 4-6 weeks over the last 6 months, and am now doing the guppy challenge. I’m still pretty slow but getting faster and it all feels less unnatural.

I did a lot of 25/50s just thinking about specific things and now that I’m doing longer pieces I still cycle through the technique cues in my head. For me, the technique improvements have bought me way more time than churning out long pieces with poor technique and I’m not frustrated and stressed coming out of the water because it all feels so much better.

So, in summary my view: yes, you might lose some fitness but improved technique will more than make up for it.

Let us know how you get on!

8

Asking swimmers how to learn to swim is like asking Michael Jordan how to play basketball. They just don’t remember that phase anymore. Fishes were generally teen and childhood swimmers.

Yeah. And you know why fishes can’t really remember ‘learning’ how to swim? It’s because it wasn’t a fast, easy process. They were in the water 4-10 times a week swimming 2k-6k per session for years straight. Not a single fish became a fish in their first, or second, or third year in the pool (hell, even MJ was cut from the basketball team his freshman year). Their technique wasn’t fixed quickly. Most of the time, it wasn’t fixed directly by a coach either. Yes, they were given drills and occasional feedback if there was any major issues. But the really kicker was that they were given an expectation that they were to be in the water day in, day out, for months, and then years at a time. And, they were given a culture that the pace clock was more important than the coach. During that time in the water, the athlete made hundreds of tiny changes to their stroke. And when a minute change was made and deemed to be successful, the athlete practiced it for thousands upon thousands of yards, all the while making other tiny changes to their stroke. Learning to swim and swim fast is a dynamic and endless process not achieved quickly. Swimmers are ever tinkering with their stroke, body position, entry, recovery, etc. Each and every time in the water is a learning experience.

Almost every adult I’ve met (including, but not limited to, triathletes) is not willing to be in the pool for 2 hours a day by 6 days a week. The only reason that childhood swimmers are any better than adult-onset swimmers is that they put in a lot of time and a lot of yards. And they never stop working on their stroke. They focus on their technique WHILE they are swimming. Technique and fitness are inseparable- both improve with work. (Some people just have different starting places.) The athlete’s body and the clock gives them the feedback they desire. Sure, it’s easier for the fishes. Now. It wasn’t always the case. They sucked big time. Don’t discredit the amount of work and the amount of tinkering that they have done over countless years and yards in the water. Becoming a fish isn’t/ wasn’t easy for anyone.

9

What can you do …lets 5x 100 in? What would be your avg time per hundred?

Before starting masters swim about 18months ago - a little over 2min - say 2:02 to 2:04/100

After literally banging my head against the wall for 16months in masters swim, 5x100 - maybe a few seconds faster than 2min - 1:55/100 on a good day.

Am now just learning that I don’t finish my pull, and swim flat, making it very difficult to breath correctly - so I am trying to fix these flaws first - then throw in kick and timing issues - and there is alot that goes downhill really fast when I do longer sets right now.

So I have been doing 25s focusing on rotation and finishing pull - some with pull buoy, some just swim, some kick and some drills. I do swim 1000-2000yds/session - but sticking to 25s & 50s while trying to figure this swimming thing out.

Unfortunately, the just keep swimming philosophy got me nowhere - a huge investment in time - spent about 5 hrs/wk on swimming and got basically nowhere but very frustrated!!!

I am working with a swim coach on the ‘how to swim’ - we have had two sessions and I plan to continue once every two weeks - and I have drills to work on technique. I think I need to really work on the ‘how to swim’ peice - just not sure how long to keep this focus before throwing in the swim longer peice to build endurance.

Is there a way to develop strength (which I am sure I also lack) with dry land? Any recommended strength (not VASA) - but actual lifting that I can do to build lat/shoulder?

10

You should not devote time to “form over fitness”. You shall work hard and while working hard focusing on perfect technique. It is easier to hold a good and sound technique if you are swim fit. You can do some more technique-related stuff that still works your swim fitness though like 3x500 pull descend with a snorkel and focusing on a great catch, right into 10x50 on whatever start intervall and swim fast with a strong pull AND strong kick, making sure that your last 2-3 intervals are the fastest. If this is not possible, well you lack the fitness to hold technique and then you need fitness, not necessarily more technique (even though better technique makes you faster at the same RPE, but so does fitness).

Thanks for reply - I did this - 3xweek masters swim at 2000 to 3500 yds per session for 16months, plus swimming on my own - no real improvement and lots of frustration. I would think after all this time, I would see improvement, so I am going back to square one and trying to figure out how to start over. Just swimming lots didn’t cut it.

Am not looking for a short cut - am trying to figure out how best to rebuild swimming technique in the off season when I have the time to devote to it.

Would you recommend any dry land to build strength? Band work?

11

Don’t stress the time/pace right now. I wouldn’t be doing 25s on :50. Do them with :20 rest interval or something and hold your best pace. Try to get all the same time. There is no magic window on when to progress to longer sets. Everyone will get it at different times. Your coach and you will have to determine that one by testing longer sets. Like was mentioned, starting point is different for everyone. I would not progress up until you have the technique though. You will know this by “testing” yourself with the longer sets.

As for dry land, stretch cords are amazing. Core work will help tremendously as well. As for weights, lots of different approaches to it. In the beginning just about all of them will help. Injury prevention when dry land training though!

12

I started swimming as an adult, and went from BOP to “decent” for triathletes (still slow as molasses compared to real swimmers). But I’m out of the water in 29-31 on HIMs, and very comfortably did a 1:02 for IM this summer.

In my opinion, people who start later in life need to really study swimming. There’s just too much going on to try to focus on intensity and technique at the same time (especially if you’re not really sure what you’re supposed to be doing in the water).

For the basics (body position, rotation, timing, etc) get the old Total Immersion books. There is a lot of crap in there, but their foundation is solid and a great and easy way to learn. When I first started, our coach had us in the beginner lanes doing the TI drills for a few months before we actually started swimming. We would do 25s of just kicking moderately, face down, arms by your side, to get the feel of pushing your chest down to bring your legs up. After like, 8 of those we would do the same thing, but on our side, so we could focus on keeping our head in line with our body. Very, very incremental steps.

We did this because, as I found out later, you simply cannot focus on head position and rotation and timing *and *high elbows etc etc at the same time. You need to get the feel for each thing and how it effects your stroke.

Once you have a decent feel of the basics, start working a more regular program, or masters group. Before each workout, go on youtube and watch one of the many super helpful and informative videos on proper freestyle, and think about what the video is trying to teach you while you swim. Really focus on it during the warm up and cool down, when you’re not also trying to hit a pace time or do lane clock math in your head.

This formula has worked pretty well for me.

13

Asking swimmers how to learn to swim is like asking Michael Jordan how to play basketball. They just don’t remember that phase anymore. Fishes were generally teen and childhood swimmers.

Yeah. And you know why fishes can’t really remember ‘learning’ how to swim? It’s because it wasn’t a fast, easy process. They were in the water 4-10 times a week swimming 2k-6k per session for years straight. Not a single fish became a fish in their first, or second, or third year in the pool (hell, even MJ was cut from the basketball team his freshman year). Their technique wasn’t fixed quickly. Most of the time, it wasn’t fixed directly by a coach either. Yes, they were given drills and occasional feedback if there was any major issues. But the really kicker was that they were given an expectation that they were to be in the water day in, day out, for months, and then years at a time. And, they were given a culture that the pace clock was more important than the coach. During that time in the water, the athlete made hundreds of tiny changes to their stroke. And when a minute change was made and deemed to be successful, the athlete practiced it for thousands upon thousands of yards, all the while making other tiny changes to their stroke. Learning to swim and swim fast is a dynamic and endless process not achieved quickly. Swimmers are ever tinkering with their stroke, body position, entry, recovery, etc. Each and every time in the water is a learning experience.

Almost every adult I’ve met (including, but not limited to, triathletes) is not willing to be in the pool for 2 hours a day by 6 days a week. The only reason that childhood swimmers are any better than adult-onset swimmers is that they put in a lot of time and a lot of yards. And they never stop working on their stroke. They focus on their technique WHILE they are swimming. Technique and fitness are inseparable- both improve with work. (Some people just have different starting places.) The athlete’s body and the clock gives them the feedback they desire. Sure, it’s easier for the fishes. Now. It wasn’t always the case. They sucked big time. Don’t discredit the amount of work and the amount of tinkering that they have done over countless years and yards in the water. Becoming a fish isn’t/ wasn’t easy for anyone.

I never sucked big time! Just small time. Ok, maybe big time.

I still remember my first club practice on like purple team or something coming from summer league. They probably did 2500 yards while I maybe got in 1300 in the same time. Most sore I have ever been in my life after that workout. Day in and day out, it got easier and I progressed.

14

I personally could not lift and swim. It would drop me 5 sec per hundred…Jason and I had a conversation a while ago on how slow one could swim and keep good technique. Its one of the problems with drills. With decent technique it is hard to swim real slow…kinda like practicing running technique on the track while running a 12 min pace.
My advice. Lots of hard, fast as you can swimming of 50’s and 100’s. Amount of rest is not important. You cannot practice good form at a 2:10 pace. If it was good form you would go faster…w/u 10 x 50 5x100 5x100 10 x 50 Thats a quick 2000 without the w/u. …When you can hold the same speed jump to 200. …my 2 cents

15

Don’t stress the time/pace right now. I wouldn’t be doing 25s on :50. Do them with :20 rest interval or something and hold your best pace. Try to get all the same time. There is no magic window on when to progress to longer sets. Everyone will get it at different times. Your coach and you will have to determine that one by testing longer sets. Like was mentioned, starting point is different for everyone. I would not progress up until you have the technique though. You will know this by “testing” yourself with the longer sets.

As for dry land, stretch cords are amazing. Core work will help tremendously as well. As for weights, lots of different approaches to it. In the beginning just about all of them will help. Injury prevention when dry land training though!

Thanks! I just got the Shelia T book on Swim Speed Secrets and she seems to be a big fan of the bands as well! Will have to order a set and give them a go!

16

Or just cut a bike tube and tie it
.

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I personally could not lift and swim. It would drop me 5 sec per hundred…Jason and I had a conversation a while ago on how slow one could swim and keep good technique. Its one of the problems with drills. With decent technique it is hard to swim real slow…kinda like practicing running technique on the track while running a 12 min pace.
My advice. Lots of hard, fast as you can swimming of 50’s and 100’s. Amount of rest is not important. You cannot practice good form at a 2:10 pace. If it was good form you would go faster…w/u 10 x 50 5x100 5x100 10 x 50 Thats a quick 2000 without the w/u. …When you can hold the same speed jump to 200. …my 2 cents

Thanks - lots of good stuff.

It’s just such a catch22 - my all out pace is slow due to bad form - so how do I fix it to get faster? Do I try to fix it first? For adult onset swimmers - it really is such a chicken or the egg problem. I am gonna just keep swimming - but I think maybe 10x25, 5x50, repeat and then step up to set you recommended.

18

The question I have is as I try to relearn how to swim, how much time should I devote to technique over endurance?

Why can’t you work both simultaneously? I can think of numerous sets off the top of my head and with out having my morning caffeine that could accomplish this.

For now, as I try to master technique (rotation, timing of breath finish stroke, kick, timing of kick), should I just do 25s and focus on one aspect of swim at a time to ingrain good habits?

Trying to master all of those at once is a recipe for doing none of them well. look pick two things, the most important 2 things in your litany of flaws and focus on focusing on those 2 things. Often times fixing the two most egregious flaws will fix other smaller flaws. ie fix your kick and often your timing cleans itself up.

should I just swim 25s for the next few months? When should I start doing longer swims? No. Now. Longer should not defined by a distance.

19

Their technique wasn’t fixed quickly. Most of the time, it wasn’t fixed directly by a coach either. Yes, they were given drills and occasional feedback if there was any major issues.

During that time in the water, the athlete made hundreds of tiny changes to their stroke. And when a minute change was made and deemed to be successful, the athlete practiced it for thousands upon thousands of yards, all the while making other tiny changes to their stroke. Learning to swim and swim fast is a dynamic and endless process not achieved quickly. Swimmers are ever tinkering with their stroke, body position, entry, recovery, etc. Each and every time in the water is a learning experience.

I’m an adult onset swimmer, and a coach.

when I first started coaching I figured, If I can do it they can do it. Then I came to understand - mostly they can’t do it.

But those who do, even as adults are well described by your sentences above. They don’t just get in and mindlessly pound away, the ones that do hit a technique wall. Whether swimming fast or slow, the people who are improving are working on technique pretty much all the time, working to find the next thing.

In adults I see two things.

  1. People who just don’t get in and concentrate, they get in and plod through 2,000 and then get out. Or, they have never known enough before to know to make a change. These are the folks who when they go to a masters class or in some way get A instruction on technique and B encouragement to swim fast - they get faster in a hurry. I have one of these guys who just started with our squad. He dropped 30 seconds off of his 500 in 10 days.

  2. You also have people have no idea what their upper body parts are doing. They can’t make changes because they don’t even know they are doing this or that. I have one of these guys in my squad as well, was working with him yesterday. I am showing him things on video that he literally can’t tell he’s doing. Number 2 is more common than number 1.

Now, can we crack case 2 and someday get him to slow down and really pay attention to what he is doing? Partially yes and partially no. I think if we really make him slow down and pay attention there is some hope. But it will always be a struggle.

In fact without good in-person instruction I think the number 2s are the folks who pack it in for the winter. Just forget about swimming until summer, at which time they swim enough to get comfortable in the water and that is it.

Now, how does this relate to the OP? Well, it is helpful to determine whether you are a 1 or a 2. It honestly doesn’t take long to figure out. That is a guide in determining how much time to spend in the pool and to a degree how to spend it.

20

Going to second what brian said above. Don’t choose one or the other, work both. I swim with a distance group, and my coach’s favorite technique set isn’t a drill/technique set at all. It’s “do insert hard-as-hell set here and think about every stroke. Elbows high, work from your core, don’t get lazy.”

Triathletes always want to know, “but really, what drill can I do?” when really the question should be “am I swimming enough?”.

Usually, the answer to the second question is a solid “no.”

“Enough” is in the neighborhood of at least 7-8hrs/week.

As a triathlete with a good run and a cycling background, I would say that you would benefit from focusing 75% or more of your time on swimming over the winter.