About running...XC worlds

Triathlon Forum
21

“Fleck-you mean you just packed up and went to Kenya for 2 months-to run and look around?”

The two months in Kenya was part of a one year around-the-world trip that I took in 1995. I went on some cool runs while I was in Kenya. Out on the Serengeti Plains, along the edge of the Rift Valley, and along the beaches south of Mombasa. But as I said, never saw anyone else out running. In bars, when you chatted up the locals over a Tusker beer, they seemed to want to talk more about soccer than distance running.

22

That’s it Matt. Pigg is racing for Humboldt Track Club-A in the Masters 40+ Men’s 10K.

Just look for a bald dude who likes to stick his chest out and tilt his head back and cheer for him. Too bad Allen isn’t there to chase him and make him run like a mad man.
I’ll keep my eyes open. I used to race against some funny looking Humboldt TC guys…lots of shaved heads and unusual facial hair.

23

Mike Pigg update: just talked to him. it’s the CLUB nationals he’s running, that’s this weekend in san fran. the individual nationals, that is, the open runners trying to make the worlds team, along with master’s nats, etc., is in february.

24

Read Tim Nokes Lore of Running. He provides lots of info on that. there are also some research stuides done pointing out some of the differences.

25

Jon Entine is also a good source on this issue.

“I am convinced that anyone interested in winning Olympic gold medals must select his or her parents very carefully.” Per-olof Astrand, 1967

26

There are some who have made the genetic link. Hard to argue. A ridiculously high percentage of the 100 top long distance runners in the world all come from the same tribe in Kenya. A population base of about 500,000 or less.

The other idea that has been put forward based on people training with and observing the Kenyans train is that over the course of the training year and their careers, they spend a higher percenatge of time training at race pace than anyone else. ie they spend more time running sub 5:00 min/miles than most other runners.

27

I know the links to the area. evolution says that the best herders and runners have been the top dudes that get to spread their seed. plenty of things that point to them being built to run, but…

I feel that the % of non-rift valley population that could reach that level of running is lower than in the rift valley, but there is no reason that there still wouldn’t be more than enough to produce the results to at least be competitive. Take ETH for example. They are generally shorter and thicker than the typical rift valley kenyan. Yet still they are the best. They dont have nearly the #'s, but who they have is better. (Geb, Kenny, Dibabba, ect) Even back to the mid eighties, the rest of the world have been right there with the east africans. I just feel that modern meds has made us think we are weak… and has changed what we think is hard training, or high milage.

I’ve had the fortune to read the actual training log of steve scott leading up to his AR mile. For a middle distance guy, he was logging more miles than most of our 10k guys today, and even as much as some of our marathoners. (Remember, he was at one point the AR holder in road 5k) I feel that our training has made us soft and thus have not been able to reach the level of training that the kenyans have as a regular standard. Hell, even Lydiard’s training back in the day was 80-120mpw, and that DIDN’T include the 60min run they did as a “recovery run” in the morning 5-6 days a week. Another 6 hours of running at an almost painfully slow 7.5min mile is another 48miles a week. Thats more than most of us here train in total!

As you touched on, we also dont train very fast. Some of the track workouts that I’ve personally done with some of the best runners in the world were only 3-4 miles in length. I usually did just .5-1 mile less than they did and I was a friggin tri geek. They also wormed up with about 3-4 miles of jogging (silent j) and a few striders. Then cool down with another 3 miles super easy (8min+ pace) that 12 miles of running might seem a lot to most of us, but looking at what some of the african athletes schedules, they did 30-60 min in the early am. then to the track in the afternoon where they did a 3-4mile warm up. then did 60minutes of drills and plyos (you’ve seen them before big races doing all sorts of strange movements) Then hammered out 6-10 mile workouts and capped it off with 3-4 cool down. Thats like 20 miles on a speed day! Naturally, its taken them years to build up to being able to handle that kind of schedule, but this isn’t just the top people doing this. There are dozens of runners doing the same workouts. Its the standard there.

I’m a little drunk, so I hope that came off well… basicly, the rest of the world is not training long enough or hard enough. We’re weak.

PEACE OUT!!!
MDW

28

Well first off, they were born and lived at altitude their entire life. And their ancestors have lived at altitude for thousands of years. Well I had a lot of reasons, but for some reason this whole thing was just deleted and I don’t feel like posting again so I will tomorrow.

29

Can’t wait to hear it!

(I just can’t figure out how to make that sound sarcastic)

30

the U.S. is genetically much less homogenous than the rift valley. yes, i think those from the highlands of east africa are more genetically predisposed to being good runners than those of lowlands west africa, who’re probably more predisposed to being sprinters.

but in the U.S., those whites, blacks, hispanics, genetically more akin to “east highlands” population (so to speak) and our “west lowlands” population are spread all over the continent. i suspect that there is a typical runner physiology that you’d find in england, ireland, spain, italy, that is every bit the equal of an east african. those people are also found all over the U.S., but sprinkled in amidst those genetically suited for other activities.

if you look at the U.S. in running right now, we’re in the middle of a big upsurge. ritzenhein and webb started it, and galen rupp, ryan hall are following in their wake. ryan’s younger brother leads the next wave, and we’ll have a lot of 8:45 2-milers and 4:03 milers this year. there are four reasons for this, and neither is genetically based. reason one is that we’re in a population upsurge, that is, the baby boomers’ kids are in high school. after the ‘primary sports’ are filled up (you can only put so many players on a football team) the secondary sport (XC) gets the overcapacity. so instead of 35 kids on a XC team you get 60 or 70.

the second reason is akin to the first. when you have 70 kids, you have a better chance of producing a 4:10 miler. once you get one of these, it lets the others know what’s possible, and they gaze higher. the 4:40 miler becomes a 4:25 miler because of that 4:10 miler on his team.

third, you get that sort of thing occurring across leagues and areas. a couple of years ago there was one overcoming program in southern california, royal high school in simi valley. the team is just as good now as it was two years ago, but you have trabuco hills, el toro, and others who’ve lifted themselves up and give as good as they get from royal. that sort of thing is happening all over the country.

finally, one wonders how many really good runners are buried in football or swimming or baseball programs. i remember coley candaele from carpenteria hs some years back. his brother was a pro baseball player, he himself was a star quarterback. but in track he was a 4:10 miler. what if he would’ve dropped the other stuff and just run?

31

The problem here is that a lot of genetically gifted individuals in the US are working on thumb exercises. ;^)

32

The vast majority of Kenyans are lousy runners with the overwhelming majority of their elites coming from one small region and one tribe, the Kalenjin. If you take the Kalenjin tribe out of Kenya they become the Zimbabwe of the running world.

For numerous Darwinian reasons the Kalenjin have been blessed with all the right tools to run…something to do with a thousand year old tradition of cattle stealing and running for days to get away I think…though I could be wrong.

When we produce a world class runner he is generally a genetic freak, when the Kalenjin do its pretty much the norm.

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But, our genetic freaks are not utilizing their gifts, most likely.

34

Over a 1000 years, it’s more likely due to cultural reasons than darwinian reasons…

35

Oooo… thats good stuff with the baby boomers.

I agree that one good athlete leads to three good athletes and so on. With rupp, webb, ritz and the like making headway we’ll start to see more, but only if the coaches and athletic programs harness the popularity. While the above mentioned runners are good, they are at a slight disadvantage because of the total running vloume they have in their legs. We need to start more youth running programs on the back of the success that these few fellas have had. THere is no reason that younger kids can;t run a few miles a day to develop and log the muscle memory without hammering the crap out of them. BY the time they get to HS, they’ll be able to handle 70-150mpw depending on the athlete and we’ll see more improvement.

Running is far too patient a sport. Miles, miles and more miles. There are COUNTLESS EXAMPLES of this fact.People log a billion miles, then take a short period of time to develp racing speed and skill, and presto, you have a new world record or olympian. TO name a few:

Billy mills: racked up a shit ton of miles the years before his oly win.
Lasse Verin: was regularly beaten in between Oly’s. Basicly did 3.5 years of base work followed by 6minths of race training.
Kenny B. Reletively unknown before making his breakout. Also the kenyan kid who had 1 or 2 10k’s in him that KB towed to someting like the 5th fastest 10k ever. Forget his name. Both just ran thousands and thousands of miles before getting real coaching and direction. Chopping 2min of your 10k is 16 months when you already go well under 30 is kinda impressive.
How bout the great Jerry Lindgren? 200mpw is HS? that guy had NO TALENT.

and on and on and on.

We have Sooooooo many people to choose from that even when you break down the population by #'s that go into other sports, or doesn’t have “gifted genes” you still have as many athletes to choose form as some countries have people.

Someone brought up the kilenjin tribe, and yes, evolution has produced a population that is built to run. They’ll always have a very high % of runners that are super fast, but there are so few of them and so many other people in the world that there HAS to be at least as many runners that will have the ability to compete with and beat these boys.

Second point: Notice that a dont mention any women? Take a look at the population of elite women runners and most of the crap we’ve been posting here is out the window. The only thing that holds true is that there is a better training system in place becasue of the mens systems in east africa. They train really well and thus produce a large # of good runners BUT, they are NOT unbeatable like the men. The top women in the world are NOT DICTATED BY GEOGRAPHY, but rather good training. Chew on that for a while! It tastes great.

36

Hello’ I 'm not going to argue that the Kaleinjin tribe is genetically predisposed to distance running. But any significant genetic selection would have to take place over a much longer period than 1000 years.

Styrrell

37

For the record I pulled the 1000 year number out of my ass, it might be 5000 years, it might be 100…it was just one theory put forward as to why the Kalenjin are such good runners…I have no idea how long they have been stealing cattle.

But on that note, did I read somewhere recently that there are exceptions to the traditional Darwinian theory that evolution follows a predictable time frame?. There is new evidence to suggest that there have been some pretty sudden evolutionary jumps in some species…sudden, like 1000 years sudden. Again I might be way-y-y off base.

38

“The vast majority of Kenyans are lousy runners”

That’s actually true. Relativly speaking, very few people in Kenya run. There are no rec or fun runners. You either run a sub 30 min 10K or you don’t run. Everyone walks in Kenya. Few people own cars or have money for buses, so everyone walks. On the outskirts of Nairobi every day the roads and the sidewalks are packed with people walking into the city to work. It’s an extraordinary site.

39

But on that note, did I read somewhere recently that there are exceptions to the traditional Darwinian theory that evolution follows a predictable time frame?. There is new evidence to suggest that there have been some pretty sudden evolutionary jumps in some species…sudden, like 1000 years sudden. Again I might be way-y-y off base.
Darwin is old news. The more progressive theory you are referring to, “punctuated equilibrium” is the work of Niles Eldridge and the late Stephen J Gould of Harvard University. Gould was probably the most prolific (and IMO best) science writers ever.

40

Interesting stats on the amazing dominace of Kenyan distance runners at the marathon distance this year. Link below to the IAAF web site confirms that Kenya runners have recorded 500 sub 2:20 marathon times this year.

http://www.iaaf.org/news/Kind=2/newsId=36982.html