A shoe question for Tai

Triathlon Forum
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Tai,

I have been plagued by problems with ITBS for as long as I can remember. I thought I had a flat foot so had all these motion control and stability shoes, after some time I realized through some help that I was really rolling out when I walk and run on the outer part of my foot. I got into the Mizuno Wave Creation’s and felt better until I ramped my miles up way to fast and again had the IT band problem. I know I need a cusioned shoe as I have a tendency to supinate, what shoe would you recomend? I am about 5’ 10" and 170 pounds, I was thinking once I get my ITBS under control sticking with the Wave Creation and ramping up my miles very slowly this time. I was also looking at the Asic Gel Nimbus. Also would I be better in a heavy duty cushioned shoe, or a lighter weight cushioned trainer like the Mizuno Wave Precision? Or does it matter that much as long as I am in a cushioned shoe?

Thanks for you time :slight_smile:

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I have the same problem, the Mizuno Creation or the Asic Nimbus should work well for you…

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hmmm, you’re one of those damn tricky flat-footed supinators:) you always fool shoe stores, or probably do 90% of the time. I’m not claiming to be special but I’m pretty sure you’d fool most of the staff at the store I work at and they might throw you in a motion control shoe. I usually catch this one, have in the past and the people are always surprised than later happy after switching out of thier motion control shoes and than the itb and outer shin pain goes away! Most people, assume that if you’re flatfooted you’ll be a major pronator. I used to and the assumption is right most of the time. So you throw the person in a motion control shoe to prevent the pronation. Now for someone like you the shoe fitter would probably need to watch you in action as you very well might stand, wear your shoes and even walk like a pronator. Than whe you run, low and behold you rail the outside edge.

The Creation is a good choice although if your itb is really bugging you the lateral edge on the creation is really soft, as is the whole shoe and won’t give you much control. The Nimbus is another good choice as it is built for a heavier runner and Asic’s 2-part midsole gives you a lot more lateral stability. But it’s still made for a higher arch.

I’d edge towards the Brooks Dyad II, it’s kind of a niche shoe. Made for the niche that is flat footed runners who would normally by Brook’s industry leading Addiction or Beast, except for the fact that they supinate. So Brooks took the Addiction, knocked out the 2nd density and lightened up the upper. You’re left with a nice broad base, minimal heel kick-up on the lateral edge and lots of nuetral stability especially on the lateral (outside) edge. It takes a bit to get used to as the wide heel might feel funny at first. And although it looks bulky, it’s actually pretty light and has a nice ride once you break it in and at the same time is very durable. If you find some old Dyad 1 shoes, these are great too, same as the new Dyad without a small medial stabilizer in the upper. Also great for nuetral runners with orthotics as the footbed is amazing for orthotic.

Other options if the dyad doesn’t work are the New Ballance 1122 and 879, the 1122 being really really stable in both directions but has the weight of a nice heavy stable brick…

Addidas supernova cushion-firm adiprene midsole helps provide lateral stability

Saucony Shadow-sweet flat heel, and firm durable polyurethane heel plug, very good for wide forefooted runners and great lateral and medial stability

good luck

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Thank you Tai, I appreciate all you time and input. Thanks again …

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Dude after last week I even have a greater appreciation for your posts. Thankfully I was able to get my gait analyzed (at a Fleet Foot in Bozeman)for the first time.They had a camera on the front and back of the treadmill. Sweet. Appreciate what you guys do for us. I wish I always lived someplace where high school kids are selling shoes. Any ways, I always wore MC(remeber my post of the original Calibrates?) Since I toe out,found out that my heel strike is nuetral and pronate at the end. Was put in a pair of aisics empires.Damn its nice when you finally get the right pair of shoes…it is so immedite…Why are empires a speciallty store only shoe. It seems I will have to order from a placeout of town and have shipped. My orthodics have never fit New Balance or Aisics. Is there something different with these shoes,or was it just sizing issues…Thanks for your time Kenney If I post to you when the empire is didcontinued,will you be able to recommend the right shoe to to from there. If so,I am willingly to buy from your shop and have them shipped(I will keep the Bozeman shop in mind also(i bought my shoes from him,though not needing them yet,just for his time)just do not know yet if he can do what I asked you…Has not gotten back to me Thanks

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There are only 3 things you should consider when buying running shoes.

  1. fit

  2. fit

  3. fit

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Really So if a motion control fits, a stability shoe fits, and a cushion shoe fits,…Its all the same?My weight, stlye,pronation ect…disatance I run ect does not matter. A 20 dollar keds fitsOK so what then? I have had many shoes that “fit” properly. Does that mean they are OK at mile 15…No. I am not flaming you here,but I have run enough years that I must be missing your point.

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Too many people buy the shoe they think they need insted of the shoe that is most comfortable on their foot.

It doesn’t matter how much you pronate, supinate, freakin masticate, and it doesn’t matter how many wonderful features a shoe has to correct your supposed problem. If it isn’t comfortable its a waste of money.

I have certain opinions about shoes that may not be too popular…there’s a pretty good correlation between the development of so called “shoe technology” and the oveall slowdown in marathon times and the increases in injury rates.

Some of the ugliest bandy legged runners of all time ran 150 miles a week and freakishly fast marathons in the simplest shoes imaginable.

Lets just say I’m very sceptical of shoe technology. I buy the simplest most comfortable shoe I can find…with a little durability. I don’t think a well made shoe will cause an injury and I don’t think a so called “corrective” shoe can prevent them.

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you’re probably right in a lot of your arguements, but for a lot of the people out there buying shoes, the “it fits” idea doesn’t quite pan out. I agree with the marathon times, and that maybe a lot of the shoes on the market today are actually doing some damage as far as foot strength, biomechanics and so on.

But you need to realize that what they have done, is bring running to a lot larger demographic, and made getting into running and the bodily adaptations necessary a lot easier for many people. If we all grew up going barefoot from day one and didn’t run on pavement for 90% of the time we’d probably scoff at todays running shoes. Some people just should not be running based on thier biomechanics. Or in order to run they’d need to prepare their body more than they are willing too. I’m personally trying to gradually get my body to be able to run in nuetral running shoes again after an injury forced me to go to a more supportive insole and shoe. Would I have been able to run as quickly after the injury without all the shoe technology, possibly, but the extra support sure helped to speed the healing. Also when you look at people’s body types they often, not always but often, relate to thier biomechanics. Big people who are pretty out of shape, have low flexibility and low or imbalanced muscular strength often are the ones needing more support or control in a shoe. Put them in a comfortable, non-stability nuetral shoe and they’ll blow out thier itb/medial ligaments/shins/fill in the blank. Granted, if you put them in that shoe and tell them to take a year getting used to running, easing thier body into it, running on grass, and when thier body is really ready for it go and really run. They’ll look at you like your some idiot insulting them and go to another store which we’ll slap in some orthotics, hand them a motion control shoe and tell them to get running. Basically running shoes nowadays are sort of a convenience, they make getting in shape more convenient and I personally like that convenience.

If you want a shoe that makes your body and feet truly do the running, check out the new Nike Free. I know, I know, Nike of all companies, but you might like the shoe. From what I’ve heard about it it’s basically barefoot running with a little cushioning. Shoes like anything are a personal preferrance. We could all also get along on our long rides using water, fruit, maybe a little bread and we’d be good. Me personally, I like the convenience of my Hammergel, Perpetuem and machine made energy bars. It’s just easier.

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Tai is right on the money with the Brooks Dyad and the Asic’s. I supinate something fierce and never noticed since my training and racing was on a trail. Last race was on a boardwalk, after I could not walk for two days. The Brooks Dyad 2 is what was suggested at the running store, now 10-15 miles a week no problem, and I have done that lately on concrete just to make sure. I feel the wide platform of the dyad 2 is what makes the difference for me because I was running with the outside of my foot rolling out past the sole. If you have a high arch you may need inserts with the dyad2.

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Again,what do you mean by the shoe most comfortable on their foot. In the store? At mile 5. At mile 15. There have been many posts on those that feel the best is the simplest. Pose method ect. However,your dis agreement with technology is what? Are there People that do not need some MC shoes,Yes. At 187,I had a pair of Reeboks that were awesome…for only 150 miles. I am interested on your background. I notice you are new to the forum(though that may mean nothing,or it may mean something) Are you a sub 2:30 marathoner? 30 min 10k er. Just curious of your credentials. To go back to your first post of all that maters is

1 Fit

2 Fit

3 Fit

Again are you saying that a racing flats are fine for all training?

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a treadmill with cameras, I’m jealous. I’ve been dreaming of building a nice running area in our store with two small ground level ccd cameras to catch footstrike movement. Just need the time to do it. No offense to Fleet Foot, but when watching people on most comercial treadmills which always have some sort of incline the footstrike often changes quite a bit with exaggerated pronation at toe off. I have no idea what type of system they have and it seemed to work great but I do shy away from the treadmill in our store, we have this gym quality Reebok treadmill.

I’ll try my best to reccomend something if the empire goes away but like the Dyad that’s a pretty unique shoe. I know Adidas did a model similar to the Empire a while ago. It’s a hard shoe to sell hence the specialty market scarceness of the shoe. Our store carries it but and everyone know’s what it’s for, yet I doubt we truly sell it correctly. You’d really have to watch the person run versus looking at wear patterns, midsole compression, arch height, weight destribution etc. And then who’s call is it to what should be deemed “forfoot pronation” I rarely see anyone who pronates right at the heel when running. It happens but it’s usually the 15min mile runners (nothing against them) who run like this. You need a looooong footstrike to get the foot pronating while weight is still on the heel. Most people pronate in somewhere near the middle of their footstrike and then continue to some extent through toe off. The empire is a great shoe but most people I know think of it more as a 2090 with just a touch more stability.

How do I buy shoes? Scary to admit but it’s often whatever looks cool in the category I need. I’m currently sharing time between a brooks dyad with custom orthotics, a pair of Sweet and Light Nike Swift Vapors and a few other nuetral shoes. My latest addition, XC spikes for Xterra races!

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Thanks again for the info. I really toe out(especially the right foot)If you saw my plants in the snow,my right foot is close to 50 degrees. Also skeptical of the treadmill. However, the first time that I was comfortable in a shoe that was not strickly stability. Cairo’s woked OK. Loved the fit of the Hurricane,but hurt on long runs on the front of the shin. Mizuno’s)wave only worked for under 3 miles(felt like my leg was broke mid shin). The empires are the only Aisic that fit my orthodic, and seem to work great. Tired of the MC(Stabil ect)glad to know I do ot need that no more…Thanks Again Kenney

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on the orthotics, they’ll fit some shoes better than others. Depends on the type of orthotic as well. Some orthotics makers can modify the orthotic or shoe to fit. Modifying the shoe is nicer so that you can use the orthotics in multiple shoes. Some shoes just aren’t made for orthotics as well. I’m surprised it fit nicely in the Creation.

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Interesting thread…

I am in the process of trying to go from a heel striker to a mid-footer/toe…I look at pics from my tris and it seems most of the time I am landing on my heel with my foot at a really steep angle up. Not sure if this is the ironman shuffle, but I am a reasonably competitive AG’er (45-49)…and I want to improve my running (to <6 min/mile in oly’s and >3:20 in IM’s)…My shoe wear is slight heel wear (which might mean I roll well of the hell strike?) and a great deal of toe wear (like that is how I wear out my shoes)

I have been running in stablility shoes, for some reason, and went to a shoe store for a review and they said that the high heel on the stability shoe is often a problem. I have gone to an Asics Landreth, and am thinking of just using a racing flat while I retrain myself to land mid foot (which seems to be working)…

Two questions:

Do you believe in the lower heels are better for learning proper running technique?

Why not use a racing flat, because I assume it has a lower heel?

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I am new to the forum…I’m doing my first triathlon this weekend so I’ve been hanging around here picking up free tips for a while.

I have been running for several years, with 10-12 marathons under my belt and a best of 2:37.

Triathletes by their nature seem to be gear freaks and this holds true for their shoes too. They want the most sophisticated technologically advanced model available when a simple lightweight cushioned shoe would work much better for most of them.

Many elite runners train year round in the lightest shoes they can find i.e. flats. I would too if I could get more than 100 miles out of a pair. I wear NB 833s which are a little over 10 ozs, cushioned and simple…no medial posts, air pockets, motion control devices or other bells and whistles. Just a light upper and an EVA midsole. I get about 400 miles out of a pair…I’d prefer 700 but what can you do?

Biomechanics are a lot more complicated than why your foot hits the ground and pushes off in a particular way. There are a thousand small causes and effects which make you run the way you run…same as your swim stroke…if you lift your head your feet drop…in running if you artificially change your foot plant something else in your stride will change.

The most obvious biomechanical changes are caused by pace. I’m a midfoot striker at anything above 5:45mm when I drop down to 10K pace I’m more of a forefoot striker, and when I’m racing a 5K I’m up on my toes the whole time. The shoes you wear don’t know how fast you are running and may help correct a problem that you have running 8:00mm but create problems if you run at 7:00mm pace.

If you interfere artificially and doctor your stride with motion control shoes you’ll never know or be able to correct the biomechanical deficiency that is causing the problem in the first place.

The more miles you run the more your body will make minute adaptations to find the best and most efficient stride…practice makes perfect. Again I’ll use a swimming comparison…if you swam 3 hours a day for a year you’d eventually become a pretty proficient crawler despite never having had a lesson or being drilled…your body would unconsciously make the adaptations towards the most efficient method for forward propulsion.

The same holds true for running. Your body will correct itself if you give it time and be patient. If you take short cuts and strap on 14 oz clogs you’ll never be a naturally efficent runner.

The purpose of the Nike Free is in a sense to wean people off overly intrusive shoes that weaken feet. You wear them a few times a week and your feet slowly adapt back to their own natural plant as opposed to an artificial one generated by clunky shoes.

I just spend all my spare time in Tevas…does the same thing.

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Pretty impresive record. Kicks my butt. In reply to

The more miles you run the more your body will make minute adaptations to find the best and most efficient stride…practice makes perfect.

At 44 I found this is not so easy. A few years ago after getting my second stress fracture doing spped work,I was put in to custom orthotics. That problem solved. Then due to pressure on my L4-5 that was causing tightness on the side of my leg,it was discovered that my leg was 10mm shorter. I spent 6 months with the Doc. with them trying to get me in higher and higher lifts. This was causing some serious hip pain.  Got rid of the lifts,pain gone. Here is what I learned. At 44 to change any part of my gait would take a complete overhaul. As with the lifts,corrected height issue but my hip was in the wrong postion at strike. I would basically have to re-learn running. Some that knew much more than me said "You are 44,running for years Don't screw with it. If I was 18 and had a coach,probaly a lot easier to change things.  Also as you said,some shoes only 100 miles. That was my only point about the Fit Fit Fit thing. I agree with you about about all the bells and whistles, however I have found a huge difference on different shoes that fit. That is why when I find a shoe I am happy with I buy 5 pairs when they change style.       If you thought I was flaming you, Sorry. Just wanted to know where you were coming from  Kenney
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No worries Kenney, I didn’t see a flame in your post at all.

Physical imbalances such as leg length discrepencies are just another of the countless thousands of little things that make up a runner’s stride. You did the right thing tossing the lifts. At 44 your body has made all the necessary adaptations to deal with a 10mm difference in leg length. The ligaments around the hip socket on your short leg are probably a lot more elastic allowing that leg to hang lower…you adapted to meet a need. When you jammed it back into the socket with heel lifts the result was pain.

Stress fractures are just a curse that runners have to live with. Some of the most graceful and efficient runners out there have chronic stress fracture problems. Look at Dathan Ritzenhein, the kid can’t weight more than 110lbs soaking wet and runs like a greyhound, yet he’s always breaking down with stress fractures.

Personally I think lower leg stress fractures are caused by pounding down too many hills…you gotta go up em to get strong, but coming down the other side can cause problems.

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there’s a pretty good correlation between the development of so called “shoe technology” and the oveall slowdown in marathon times and the increases in injury rates.

correlation is not causation.

“slowdown in marathon times” - really ?
http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_367.pdf
marathon time seems to be moving along pretty well… The world-record holders are benefiting from the same technologies as the joggers.

“increase in injury rates” - how measured ? I’d be very very surprised to find the rate has increased at all since the beginning of the running boom - my gut feel is that it’s holding pretty steady. New runners get bad advice or no advice, put on the wrong shoes, get injured and either drop out or get better advice. That goes on all the time.

Yes, there’s a lot of irrelevant “shoe technology” designed mostly to sell shoes. But the basics are still true - bad biomechanics need correction in some way, shoes are the quickest easiest most effective way to provide it. Tai clearly knows this - best shoe advice I’ve seen on the Wild Wild Web. IF you have good biomechanics, well that’s nice, but it doesn’t help the millions who don’t.

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a treadmill with cameras, I’m jealous. I’ve been dreaming of building a nice running area in our store with two small ground level ccd cameras to catch footstrike movement.

Yes indeed. If in Boulder, go to the Boulder Running Co, and get Mark Plaatjies or Johnny Halberstadt to do the treadmill analysis… both were world-class runners, Mark’s a PT, Johnny’s been finding the right shoe for his customers for decades. You’ll get a good shoe…