A new question for the PC'ers

Triathlon Forum
21

I have not seen the studies that you reference done by the Japanese scientists but I suspect their conclusions are a bunch of speculation. Unless they actually measured intramuscular pressures during these pedaling periods they cannot know whether there is " less muscular strain per stroke" or not. In fact, my theoretical analysis would suggest there should be more muscular strain per stroke at higher cadences, at the same power, even though there is less force on the pedal, due to the need to accelerate the foot up to pedal speed before one once of force can be applied to the pedal - this acceleration being performed by the very muscles used to apply pedal force.

I think cyclists tend to race at higher cadences than is most efficient for tactical reasons because of the nature of their racing. Because of the nature of the bicycle matched with a biological system, the ability to quickly accelerate to match opponents requires riding at higher cadences, where higher powers can be quickly achieved, even though they are less efficient. Since most cycling is in this environment, this is what the cyclist trains to do so that, come the time trial, where maximum power matched with maximum efficiency is the key to success, the rider doesn’t have the experience to change. Cyclists don’t reduce muscular fatigue by pedaling at higher cadences, they reduce muscular fatigue by drafting.

Cycling has evolved the way it has because it is not an individual sport, but, rather, a group activity. You win not because you have the ability to ride faster than your opponent but because you get to the line before him/her, the race, usually, being decided entirely in the last mile or so.

Frank

22

Dr. Day,

Like I’ve mentioned before, my pre-PC style was to push very big gears at low RPMs, so when I first started riding PCs I actually INCREASED my cadence in order to give my pushing foot a little momentum back over the top.

I think I’ve gradually gravitated back to my old cadence (but I base this simply on feel and the fact that I’m back to big gears.) All of my riding has been on the Computrainer. Usually I just ride the same old 13 mile Coors course. Sometimes I draft, and sometimes I don’t. Anyway, I struggle when I draft going downhill because I spin so poorly. I was never a smooth spinner before, but it seems even harder with the PCs. Your small gear exercise would probably do me some good.

My best solo effort on the PCs for the 13 mile course has been a 328 Watt average. This is well below my old best, but I haven’t gone really hard on them yet, and I think much of my loss is my inability to keep the power up while riding at high RPMs when I’m going downhill. I also use to get out of the saddle occasionally which would relieve some overworked muscles while increasing power. I simply cannot ride effectively out of the saddle yet.

Even with the PCs, I don’t “feel” like I’m pedaling in circles. My old style felt like “stomp, stomp, stomp,” and my new, PC style feels more like “push/pull, push/pull, push/pull.” I feel like my legs are simply acting like pistons–up and down, but no “around.” I’m not overly concerned about this because my cycling has always been strong, so maybe if it ain’t broke, I shouldn’t fix it. I’m more anxious to see if the PCs will resuscitate my sluggish run. I haven’t noticed any affect on my running yet, but then again it’s only been a short while an I haven’t been too consistent with my training.

One concern I have is that the drive side crank seems to have a slight wobble even though I’m sure it’s tight. Have you encountered this before?

23

Trifink, You are “pedaling in circles” or you would be hesitating at the top or the bottom. it is just your dominant action is the push/pull, as is most peoples. I suspect with more time you will smooth things out.

Slight wobble can come from many things from how they are installed to spider being “bent” from any various causes and including flexing of the frame from high stomping forces. It probably is not a big issue it it is not severe enough to interfere with shifting or ability to apply power. If you are riding at 328 watt average with no mechanical problems I suspect and are a natural masher, frame flex may be part of the problem causing “apparent wobble” and i suspect this is not a big deal.

Frank

24

Finkmeister, I have the drive side wobble, too. I thought the chainrings might be warped, the spindle warped, the spider warped, etc. I tested them all. If you have ZERO load on the system, turn the crank by hand…you’ll find it probably is true. When you crank with your foot, though, you’ll see the wobble. I think, with mine, it is simply a little bit of play that is inherent in the mechanism. It isn’t much, and it just means I have to fine-tune the front derailler a bit more than usual to keep the chain from rubbing. I doubt it’s due to bottom bracket flex on a Kestrel Talon. That sucker is stout.

Watch for the run improvement…for me, it happened before any cycling improvement! It’s sleeting today, and I was planning on running…not to worry, I’ll PC instead! Lots of running benefit without the damage that running can do!

25

regarding not being able to get through the transition without being afeard of losing something. Here is a post from a training log on another site.

“PowerCranks. Brother I hate these things :slight_smile: PC’s should be for Painful Crotch :slight_smile: I think I’ll ride PC once or twice a week as a speed skills session, I really can’t get a good aerobic workout on them. I do find my legs getting tired but my lower back and crotch take a beating too.”

What does it take to get people to use them “right”? I am not sure this person will ever get to 100 miles or see any significant improvement. I do like the alternative term for PC’s though.:slight_smile:

Frank

26

Training Smooth Strokes By Seiji Ishii.

We have all seen it at our local club ride or on TV, athletes with a seemingly effortless pedal stroke, turning an incredible cadence, power flowing to the pedals without any wasted motion or energy. Smooth and efficient transfer of energy from body to bike results in quicker times in the bike leg and leaving more reserves for the run leg. Armstrong harnessed a quicker and more efficient pedal stroke to help in his domination of the last three Tours. Competitors could not overlook his obviously quicker and more efficient pedaling style. Yes, we have seen it, read it, and heard it but have we practiced what is seemingly a key to success in the cycling discipline?

Triathletes spend incredible amounts of time and energy into refining swim stroke technique and an energy saving running style. The pedaling stroke is often overlooked; after all we have all been riding bikes since childhood. This is akin to saying you won’t drown and that’s good enough. And since the bike leg is always proportionally longer in time than the other legs of a triathlon, it starts to make sense that efficiency on the bike may warrant some serious thought and effort in your training regime.

Where do you start on your quest for that energy efficient smoothness? First off has to be bike fit. All talk about pedaling dynamics doesn’t matter if your bike fit doesn’t allow you to use your muscles in an effective manner. Correct fit makes learning and utilizing good pedaling mechanics much easier and will keep you more efficient (and injury free) in the long run. Proper bicycle fit will allow you to use the most of the correct muscle mass to apply force to the pedals.

The next step is to develop an efficient application of force. What this involves is applying force to the pedals during then entire 360 degrees that make up the pedal stroke. You can utilize a simple drill to help teach your nervous system and ready your musculature to apply force all the way around. This one legged pedaling drill will make you aware of deficiencies in pedal stroke and will stress the muscles in your legs that are not being used to their potential. Set your bike up on an indoor trainer and place a chair on each side of your bicycle. After a warm up period, place one foot on a chair, make sure that your hips are still square, and pedal a short interval with one leg only. Concentrate on the top and bottom sections of the pedal stroke, the areas where it is the most difficult to apply force. You should attempt to slide your foot forward inside your shoe as you clear the top of the stroke and slide your foot back inside your shoe across the bottom. As your foot starts to come up again, just try to carry the momentum back to the top. You are not attempting to apply an upward force, you are just unloading the weight of your leg from the pedal so that the opposing leg does not have to waste any energy lifting that dead weight. A cue you can use here is to attempt to throw your knee over the handlebar. A visual indicator you can use during this drill is to look at the top run of your chain. If the chain droops momentarily, that is a point within your pedal stroke where you are not applying tension on the chain, which indicates you are not applying the correct force to the pedal. Start this drill at a slow cadence so you can concentrate fully on correct form. Gradually increase your cadence while maintaining this form and continue the interval only a long as this form holds true. You can start with 30-second intervals and work up to one minute per leg. Alternate legs and periodically use both feet concentrating on the form you were using with one leg. More than likely you will feel fatigued in strange muscles that you have been underutilizing, usually the hip flexors (in front of your hip joint) and anterior tibialis (in front of your shin). Remember to only perform this at a cadence and time interval that allows perfect form.

The next factor to consider in your quest for efficiency is cadence. Practicing and implementing a higher cadence during your cycling will give you a deadly double-edged sword: First, the higher your cadence, the less force you must apply at the pedals to generate the same power. Less force applied to the pedals means less stress applied to the musculature of your legs, leaving you more reserves for the run. You can, of course, apply the same force with a higher cadence to achieve a higher speed as well. Second, the higher speed at which your feet move through a pedal cycle results in a smaller time interval during which you have to apply this force. Basically you have less time to apply the force during each crank revolution since you are getting through the cycle faster. The effectiveness of this one-two punch can also be better understood if we think about some physics here. Power is defined as the product of force and velocity. A higher cadence diminishes the force and the length of time you apply this force per pedal stroke. The result is less power produced per pedal stroke. This is what saves your musculature. Just ask Professor Armstrong about that equation. You can use high cadence drills to teach your nervous system to operate in this more efficient manner. Use a low gear that keeps you well in your aerobic HR zones and do 5-10 minute intervals at a cadence between 107 and 130. Relax your upper body and feet, be smooth and supple with your legs. No bouncing in the saddle! Remember that you are specifically stressing foot speed here, not force, so the force you apply to the pedals should be very low. Recover for the same amount of time at a lower cadence of 90 to 100. Use various hand positions during these drills to make sure you can use a fast cadence no matter how your body is positioned on your machine. You can also stress using correct cadence while fatigued by doing these intervals at the end of a long ride. Recovery rides provide another opportunity to do these drills since the muscular stress is so low. The ultimate goal of this drill is that you engrain this fast cadence into your neuromuscular system and employ it in all your rides. The accompanying chart describes a sample workout for both the single leg pedaling drills covered earlier and these high cadence drills. This chart is only a sample of the many variations that you can add to these very effective drills.

The optimal part of your training year to focus on your pedaling skills and the described drills is during the early base building periods. During these periods intensity is low so it is much easier to focus on efficiency. Also, the skills and motor patterns that make up an efficient pedal stroke must be learned at lower force and aerobic intensity levels before you can carry them over at high force and aerobic intensity levels.

Once you have mastered the efficient application of force and adopted a quicker pedaling cadence you will be well on your way to harnessing more power, higher efficiency, and less leg fatigue on the bike leg. You will be able to sustain a higher average speed during the bike and feel less muscle fatigue when you leave T2. Your competitors may notice something different about your pedaling style as you scream past them on the bike leg in all your efficient glory or float past them on the run on your fresh and springy legs. You will definitely notice the improved results brought to you by your newly acquired skills.

Single Leg Pedaling Drills:

Set 1: 30 seconds right leg, 30 seconds left leg, 30 seconds both legs focusing on form at a comfortable cadence. Repeat 3 times

5 minutes easy recovery riding

Set 2: 45 second right leg, 45 seconds left leg, 30 seconds both legs focusing on form at comfortable cadence. Repeat 3 times.

5 minutes easy recovery riding

Set 3: 1 minute right leg, 1 minute left leg, 1 minute both legs focusing on form at comfortable cadence. Repeat 3 times.

A good goal is to try to get 6-9 minutes on each individual leg per workout. Remember to only use a cadence and interval length that allows you to hold perfect form. Gradually increase interval time and cadence and decrease the recovery period as your skill improves and your neuromuscular system adapts.

High Cadence Drills:

Set 1: 5 minutes at cadence of 107-115, hands on tops and brake hoods.

8 minutes easy recovery riding

Set 2: 5 minutes at cadence of 115-125, hands on brake hoods and drops or aero bars.

8 minutes easy recovery riding

Set 3: 5 minutes at cadence of 115-125, with 20-second bursts of 125-130, hands on brake hoods and aero bars.

Remember that your goal here is foot speed, not force. Relax that upper body and feet and no bouncing! Gradually increase the length of the interval and reduce the recovery interval as your body adapts.

Seiji Ishii is a CTS Cycling/Multisport Coach and USA Cycling Expert Level Coach. For more information on CTS and to order coaching, visit the web site at http://www.trainright.com

28

het stoots. not to argue with this insightful post, but one thing PC’s demonstrate very clearly, and this writer kinda misses, is that high cadence work and true positive pressure circular pedalling are actually mutually exclusive at first. take a new rider on PC’s which insure positive pressure/efficient pedalling as the writer espouses, and have him spin like a madman and he will be in tears inside 5 min.

secondly, the drills described are good, and certainly anything but new. but PC’s are better on a order of huge magnitude. Pc’s make the rider do what a couple minutes of drilling does for hour after hour, with every pedal stroke. even then, it seems most riders feel that if they revert back to the regular cranks they also revert back to non-positive pressure pedalling, in light of what the PC’s have had to say about their stroke.

exptrpolating from these points it seems to me that by drilling for a few minutes, and then spin training yourself you may uncover a few interesting ideas about riding a bike, but PC’s will go much deeper. PC’s will let you spin high cadences when and only when you can do so efficiently and with positive forward effort at every microsecond. the drills described will kinda get you thinking about the issue, but will let you spin and let the recovering leg catch a ride even as you do so. pretty big difference. . . . .

but, it is a good article and this guy seems very insightful. i don’t recall mr day espousing that lower cadences are the be all and end all. his cranks indicate that lower cadences are a way to let people learn to ride efficiently at first. also, they suggest that perhaps lower cadences are not so bad as many believe, to say the least. but of course everybody is an individual. to say that lance is the champion he is because he spins faster than everybody else and therefore we should too is missing the boat, think i. there are other guys spinning like him and sucking all over the world, in fact, just as there are guys mashing along in huge gears finishing mere seconds behind him.

oh yes, and “badgerland” does not need to get any better at xc skiing - last time i checked it was the only thing i could do and keep in sight at !!

29

Mr. Stoots

The original question was directed to PC’ers. Although i expected there would be lurkers, it is incredible to me that someone who has, obviously, never ridden a pair would make such a comment.

The suggestion of “super low cadence” was simply a drill suggestion to overcome one of the “perceived” weakenesses of the system as seem by some. I was looking for feedback. Why you would suggest 9 minutes of one legged drills would be useful training to teach “circular pedaling” for a 5 or 6 hour race when 5 to 6 hours of one legged pedaling (both legs at the same time) is easily attained on the PowerCranks without the aid of a chair is beyond me.

I have always said I thought the most powerful cadence for most people would be somewhere between 80 and 90 and the more powerful the rider the higher that “optimal cadence” would be. Lance riding at a higher cadence than most of the PC’ers does not bother me. I am more interested in optimizing the power for each individual within their own capabilities and training time constraints.

Further, the article has substantial errors as I pointed out in an earlier post. While it is true that: “the higher your cadence, the less force you must apply at the pedals to generate the same power.” But it does not follow then that: “Less force applied to the pedals means less stress applied to the musculature of your legs, leaving you more reserves for the run.” This is pure supposition and not based upon any science. If this is the case why don’t we all ride at a cadence of 110, or 120, or 140! Afterall, the forces on the pedals would be even less at those cadences. there is an optimum cadence for most people and, for most people, it ain’t anywhere near what Lance rides, possibly because “most people” don’t put out anywhere near the sustained power Lance does.

Frank

30

It’s pretty simple to prove to oneself what an optimal cadence is for a simple time trial by using a resistance trainer. You just have to set it up and experiment.

It’s a bit more difficult to know what optimum cadence is for a road race. These races are like comparing apples to oranges. In my limited experience, high rpm’s were great for riding with a pack, surging when they do, jumping to go with a break, or sprinting. Much lower cadences serve me much better for staying away when I’ve been the one to make a break, and for time trials.

I don’t know exactly what higher or lower cadences on the bike do for my run times. But, when I’m going several minutes faster at a lower heartrate on a 40k ride with lower cadences…I’ll be hard pressed to be convinced I should go higher cadences with the (for me) accompanying higher heartrates and slower split time so that I can run a little faster…especially when I don’t think I’d run faster after all that high heartrate work!

In 3 days, I’ll have had my two month trial with PC’s. I started out at 30 seconds before I got out of phase. Now, I can ride for over an hour on a trainer…some of it even in an aero position, and my cadence has gradually increased to the point that I can run 85 rpms the entire time…as long as I stay upright. What I do, though, is drop to the 60’s in my aero position and stay there as long as I can, then sit up and gear down…and get back up to 85 for a while. Rinse. Repeat. I’m measuring my heartrate and speed the whole time to see what happens.

Sometimes I ride in the aero position at rpm’s of 85…I just don’t last long doing it…but when I do this, the speed is great. I have NO DOUBT that I’ll be able to do this within the year. And if I don’t, I bet I’ll still be faster at a slightly less aero position due to PC training than I was last year.

It’s interesting what I learn doing these kinds of workouts. I’m really improving my pedal stroke, cycling speed, and my running times. And the knowledge I’m gaining about how my body produces power most efficiently is certainly valuable. But, I still have three more days to decide if I want to keep them or get my money back! Hmm…what should I do?

31

Frank,

I thought that debate was part of forums? I guess no discourse is allowed when concerning the gosple according to “Frank”. I am not posting to mess with you or you product. I have observed that in situations that anyone disagrees with you, you become defensive and at times down right nasty. So this will be the last time I post on this ,because you are unwilling accept any differing views.

Your product is a good training aide. I was intrested in it, fore I have done hours of one legged training. There is a time and a place for slow cadence training and it is not all the time. I power work and mix it with high cadence work and that equates to more power.

I have looked for information on the merits of racing at a cadence of 60 to 80rpm and Frank, I can not find any. I looked so as to not to be a fool when I posted my concerns. I found hundreds of writings of the bennifits on higher cadence for both tri heads and roadies. I did not find any backing your theory. I guess I could flood you with all the studies backing my thoughts but this would be a waste of my time. You wrote, "my theoretical analysis would suggest there should be more muscular strain per stroke at higher cadences. There are many studies that prove this “theoretical analysis”. Would you like me to send one of the many studies from CTS on cadence/power. I guess they are junk scientist too.

I just wish to go on record and say “I told you so”, when all the knee problems crop up from training and raciing at 60 to 80 rpms. Good luck at selling your product. Again, I think that it is a good training aide. I will leave with this parting shot: More junk science I guess…No I am not a CTS client…I have my own coach not of the CTS… Cycling for Faster Run Splits

Peter Reid

Over the past three years I have been working hard on my cycling; yet, my cycling splits have not gotten that much faster. All that hard work for nothing you would think. Well not really, something weird happened, I got faster on the run. As I focused more on my bike training my running off the bike began to get faster. Plus, my perceived effort for the runs also went down. I am now running faster in triathlons with less effort. You have to be a good runner to do well at any Ironman and triathlons. Plus, the feeling of running away from everybody or chasing people down in those last few kilometers of the run is awesome. So how do you get faster on the run through bike training?

Well, a lot of triathletes believe that they need to focus on there run training and give up some bike training to get faster on the run but I disagree. That type of thinking works for training for a strictly running race, but not for the triathlon run. You need to think of triathlon as one sport and not three sports. Train as a triathlete and not as a swimmer, cyclist and runner. For instance, while training for swimming you need to think about how the effects of the swim will affect your bike section. The same goes for bike training. You need to focus on the bike so that you start the run without feeling the effects of the bike section. I am not saying to give up the run training. You will always need to incorporate all the key workouts for running, including intervals, drills, and long runs; but there are some specific items in your cycling training that will help you run faster off of the bike. I believe that there are three key components to cycling training that help triathletes improve the run section in the triathlon. Together, these three components allow a triathlete to start the run with more physical and mental strength to attack the run. The first aspect is bike set-up. The second is cycling efficiency, and the third is cycling endurance.

When setting up a triathlon race bike you need to be aerodynamic to cut through the wind, but it is also very important to be comfortable. A very important consideration is the width of the aerobar pads. Narrow pads will make you sleek but they will also restrict breathing. Oxygen must be able to flow easily in and out of the body to get processed. If you are tight is the chest area you will need to work harder to keep moving forward; so, give up a little of the aerodynamics so that breathing becomes easier. The second, and probably most important aspect is saddle height. If my saddle is off a few millimeters, I feel it. I think the number one problem with saddle height is that people are too high. If the leg becomes straight while pedaling the saddle is much too high. A good indicator is to have some one ride behind and see if your hips are rocking from side to side. If they are, the saddle is too high and needs to be lowered a bit. Work is small increments when adjusting saddle height. It is always remarkable how different a few millimeters in saddle height will feel while pedaling. The goal is to achieve a nice fluid pedal stroke without any upper body movement. Your legs should be the only things that move while riding. If the upper body is moving you’re wasting valuable energy that will be needed for the run. The goal is to set up the bike so that you are comfortable and efficient.

Now that the upper body is set, we need to focus on cycling efficiency. Cycling efficiency refers the amount energy that is required to move the bike forward. The biggest problem with an inefficient pedal stroke or poor cycling efficiency is that a cyclist pushes against himself rather than driving all the energy into the gears. My biggest problem for years was that my down stroke was fighting the upstroke every time I turned the pedals. For instance, as I was pushing down with my right leg, part of the energy was going into lifting my left leg instead of moving the bike forward. Studies have shown that no additional power is generated in the upstroke, but it is possible to unweight the pedal as it rises, thus reducing the resistance against the opposite leg. What needs to happen is that the left leg releases all pressure on the pedal so that the right leg is only pushing against the gears rather than pushing against the gears and your left leg. Usually when I begin my rides I try to focus on working the upstrokes so that I get the feeling of releasing pressure on the pedals during the upstroke phase of the pedal stroke. A great tool for cycling efficiency is the Spin Scan on CompuTrainers. The Spin Scan shows exactly what each leg is doing during the pedal stroke; so, you can analyze your pedal stroke while riding. You can see if you are actually pushing against yourself rather than just driving the gears.

The second aspect to improve is the pedaling cadence. Too many triathletes mash the gears. Pushing a big gear takes a huge amount of muscle strength but does not equate into huge power. I have been training quite a bit over the past year with an SRM Power Meter on my bike that gives me instant information on the wattage (power) I am generating. A slow cadence does not generate more power than a higher cadence. Just look at Lance Armstrong in the Tour the past 2 years. His cadence was so much higher than everyone else in the peloton and he was also going faster than rest of the peloton. A higher cadence taxes the aerobic system a little more than a lower cadence but it uses a lot less muscle strength that will be needed for the run section. Mashers tend to ride fast but go on to have slow run splits because their muscles are aching as a result of muscle fatigue. It is better to choose an easier gear and breath a little faster than mash a harder gear and fatigue your muscles. When I am training and racing I constantly ask myself if I could be going the same speed in an easier gear. Sure, my heart rate goes up a bit due to the higher cadence but the heart does not fatigue the same way skeletal muscles do. Raising my heart rate a few beats does not lead to the same consequences as pushing my legs to work harder. Remember, a marathon is a long journey and you don’t want to start it with exhausted legs.

The next process is cycling endurance, which basically involves long steady miles in the saddle. If you are getting ready for an Ironman you need to do a few rides of at least four to five hours. Some of these rides should be done solo. Why solo? It builds mental strength: endurance of the mind. If you ride with a group, how much time are you actually in front blocking the wind for the rest of the group? You are probably in the lead less than seventy-five percent of the time. I consider a six-hour group ride about equal to a four-hour solo ride. Plus, when you are with a group you have other people to motivate you. Going solo forces you to push yourself; hence, it builds mental strength, which you will need toward the end of the run section of a triathlon when you are exhausted. Exhaustion is physical and mental fatigue. I truly believe the long ride is more about mental training that physical training. Sure, the more miles you put on the bike the more efficient you will become with your pedal stroke and aerobic system. Constant repetition of a movement will allow the body to adapt to that particular movement. The more the body adapts, the more efficient the pedal stroke, and the less energy you waste on the bike. That translated to more energy for the run. Be that as it may, you need to be able to keep pushing yourself mentally. There are so many times during the run that the mind wanders and loses focus. The more you adapt to pushing yourself the more it will be easier to do on race day. So do a few solo long rides to strengthen the mind in order to get off the bike on race day full mental power to attack the entire run.

The goal is to start the run section strong and fresh. In order to do this you need to focus a little bit more on the bike section so that you race the run section of the triathlon close to the same speed and effort that you would race in a pure running race. Remember, you are a triathlete and you need to train as a triathlete.

Peter Reid is the 2000 Ironman World Champion and calls Chris Carmichael, “Coach”. Carmichael Training Systems (CTS) has personal coaching packages for athletes of all levels. Please visit CTS at www.trainright.com

32

Stoots: Interesting point of view you bring. I read what you attributed to Peter Reid, and I have a question about something in that writing…that a CT shows what each leg is doing on each pedal stroke.

I have only been on a CT once, last week, for a fitting. It was my impression that the CT showed two “humps” for each revolution. But, it really can’t tell the difference between each leg, e.g., I could make the “left leg hump” get higher by lifting better with my right leg, and vice-versa.

So, wasn’t it just showing the combined forces acting on the wheel when the left crankarm was descending, and then the same for the right crankarm? I didn’t do it, but, if you pedalled one-legged on a computrainer with only your right leg…wouldn’t it show a “left leg hump” if you actively picked up with your right leg, even if there was no left leg on the pedal? If this is so, then the CT doesn’t show what each leg is doing…it just shows the result of the sum of the forces on the wheel as each crank moves around.

As far as knee pain, it’s interesting to note that I have had knee pain when doing low rpm work…defined by me as rpms lower than 90. I haven’t had any knee pain with PC’s even though my rpm’s are just recently reaching the lofty goal of about 85.

When I did the CT fitting last week, I put regular cranks back on my bike, and I started having knee pain…after only one 45 minute testing ride where I kept the rpm’s about the same as I run them on PC’s. It’s been almost a week, now, and after several days of an ache that was worse when I go down stairs, it’s finally gone. During that week, I did three PC trainer sessions…all which included some very very low rpm work…defined by me as 60 or less. So, if it were the low rpm work that was causing my knee to hurt, it should have gotten worse. It got better.

Don’t leave the posting…if people don’t want to read what you write, they can just skip over it. I’m CERTAIN my posts get skipped over all the time!

33

c’mon, stoots lets be fair. you call mr day out with a comment on him being wrong, post a lengthy essay which is only sort of contexually apprapo to his statements, and start the whole thing out by taking him out of context. then he defends himself and his position. you follow by saying you want debate, but then in the same breath say mr day is too strident a debater !! which do you want? mr day believes in what he is saying, and you want to know why it is opposed to some convential wisdom. fair enuf. stick to the issues, don’t say he is “wrong” and then post a training essay, and …DEBATE, if you like - we are interested. i guess i am pointing out that in your scorn and hurt feelings you are doing exactly what you accuse mr day of doing - shutiing down because somebody disagrees with you.

as we all know the written medium is not the best place sometimes to debate. you can’t see the other person’s body language nor hear their tone. we are not all professional writers. it is, i believe very strongly, wise to give the person the benefit of the doubt in terms of emotion and tone and that sort of thing. assume the person is smiling, and engaging in a spirted campfire bench-racing session.

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Frank,

To answer your question about benefits of PC’s to nordic skate skiing. Yes, I have noticed an improvement in balance and climbing hills. The benefits are hard to quantify though since If you take the last 3 years of winter weather, I have only been on skis for about 5-6 months.

Climbing hills used to be a big problem for me since technique plays a huge role in nordic skiing. Although in late December because of a lack of snow in Wisconsin I bought roller-skis and put a month and a half of training in. Started PC’s beginning of January and started snow-skiing February 4th. The one thing I noticed since first using the PC’s is that on the hills my legs have a faster turnover and my balance improved (again it is hard to quantify since I have no way of collecting data). Skiing on flat terrain is hard to compare since technique and glide play a more important role (still in developing stages).

Maybe someone such as TTN can respond since he has years of experience skate skiing.

Chris

35

Of course lurkers are allowed. In fact, i said I expected them. My concern is this topic has been discused ad nauseum in the view of many or most on this list and seemed somewhat innappropriate to be brought up as part of that particular topic.

It seems to me that if you want to debate PowerCranks a thread devoted to that perhaps entitled “An article (or argument): PC’s not necessary to improve”. Then put forth your arguments. Fortunately for me, it is no longer necessary for me to rebut every argument against the cranks or make every argument for them. Look carefully, you don’t find many people who have used the cranks for any length of time joining in on the anti PC side of these arguments.

Regarding some of your other points. I have not seen any of the CTS 'studies" so I do not know if they are junk science. And, please go back and look at the post that started this, I said nothing about racing at an RPM of 60. I have always said I thought most peoples most efficient cadence was between 80 and 90.

Regarding knee problems, almost every person starts out using these things at very low cadences of 60-70 for awhile and almost everyone comments on how surprised they are they see no knee problems or that knee problems they did have go away. A few users have transient pain behind the knee (probably at the insertion of the hamstrings) and I know of one customer who had “muscle pulls” related to the cranks - but that is not a knee problem. Predict away but the evidence suggests that PC’s reduce knee problems regardless of cadence.

Frank