So here is the origin of the question: I ride, a lot. I ride with lots of tri and road riders (many are both). Some outstanding riders and some not so great. In conversations I have with these folks when the question of crits especially and sometimes road races comes up I hear things like “No way I want to be in that tight of a pack with everyone elbowing for position. And when one guy goes down, ten riders crash out.” So a lot of people who would/coud race don’t think it’s worth the risk based on the risk (perceived or real) of crashing.
My background: I don’t road race or ride crits but I do some some pretty aggressive road rides. I’d like to and likely will race but the prospect of taking the risk and potentially breaking a bone with the attached 6 weeks off training makes me think long an hard about the choice I make. Maybe I am a little chickensh!t about this but it seems there are quite a few other that are also. My other observation is that even thought triathlons are not draft legal I always rider harder when I have a rabbit to chase, and there’s no way I’m the only one.
Now to your questions: No one riding in a peleton or on someone else’s tire is running at 100%, you can’t. 85% effort, sure but not 100. So this isn’t that much different. Non-pack riding would of course slow the group down a bit which doesn’t hurt crash risk either.
This kind of a race on road bikes would stil require a lot of strategy with pacing and positioning for passing etc. I’m certainly not claiming something like this would be better than anything else, just had the thought of bringing something new to the table. My interest isn’t so much in trying to make racing more interesting to watch, just purer to race. I care about who the best rider is not tactician.
It was an honest question. I can see how it looked like a trolling. But I don’t bluff or troll either.
Now to your questions: No one riding in a peleton or on someone else’s tire is running at 100%, you can’t. 85% effort, sure but not 100. So this isn’t that much different. Non-pack riding would of course slow the group down a bit which doesn’t hurt crash risk either.
This kind of a race on road bikes would stil require a lot of strategy with pacing and positioning for passing etc. I’m certainly not claiming something like this would be better than anything else, just had the thought of bringing something new to the table. My interest isn’t so much in trying to make racing more interesting to watch, just purer to race. I care about who the best rider is not tactician.
Er, if no one was going at 100% in a pack no one would ever get dropped. I’ve been dropped in road races and I wasn’t going at 85% before it happened, more like redlining to stay on and try maintain/close the gap.
As far as strategy, time trials don’t require much in the way of strategy beyond proper pacing. I fail to see how being on a different bike changes this at all.
Er, if no one was going at 100% in a pack no one would ever get dropped. I’ve been dropped in road races and I wasn’t going at 85% before it happened, more like redlining to stay on and try maintain/close the gap. .
Perhaps I should have said the purpose of riding in a pack is so you don’t have to run at 100% all the time. If you’re second or third in a line and you’re competitive with the other riders you’re only putting out something like 75%. I’m not saying you can’t get dropped, of course you can. In any race don’t you want to get as close to redline as you can and occasionally dip over without hurting yourself too much?
So here is the origin of the question: I ride, a lot. I ride with lots of tri and road riders (many are both). Some outstanding riders and some not so great. In conversations I have with these folks when the question of crits especially and sometimes road races comes up I hear things like “No way I want to be in that tight of a pack with everyone elbowing for position. And when one guy goes down, ten riders crash out.” So a lot of people who would/coud race don’t think it’s worth the risk based on the risk (perceived or real) of crashing.
My background: I don’t road race or ride crits but I do some some pretty aggressive road rides. I’d like to and likely will race but the prospect of taking the risk and potentially breaking a bone with the attached 6 weeks off training makes me think long an hard about the choice I make. Maybe I am a little chickensh!t about this but it seems there are quite a few other that are also. My other observation is that even thought triathlons are not draft legal I always rider harder when I have a rabbit to chase, and there’s no way I’m the only one.
Now to your questions: No one riding in a peleton or on someone else’s tire is running at 100%, you can’t. 85% effort, sure but not 100. So this isn’t that much different. Non-pack riding would of course slow the group down a bit which doesn’t hurt crash risk either.
This kind of a race on road bikes would stil require a lot of strategy with pacing and positioning for passing etc. I’m certainly not claiming something like this would be better than anything else, just had the thought of bringing something new to the table. My interest isn’t so much in trying to make racing more interesting to watch, just purer to race. I care about who the best rider is not tactician.
It was an honest question. I can see how it looked like a trolling. But I don’t bluff or troll either.
Perhaps I should have said the purpose of riding in a pack is so you don’t have to run at 100% all the time. If you’re second or third in a line and you’re competitive with the other riders you’re only putting out something like 75%. I’m not saying you can’t get dropped, of course you can. In any race don’t you want to get as close to redline as you can and occasionally dip over without hurting yourself too much?
In any race you want to ride as hard as you need to in order to stay with the pack. That may be 100% (hopefully not) it could be 30%. Going harder doesn’t serve a purpose unless your attacking or chasing a break down for a teammate. No reason to put out a lot of wattage if its unnecessary.
Basically what you are asking is to see a running race run on bikes. Logistically it would not work for a mass start event like the Tour. Maybe as an exhibition event (almost like a post Tour Crit, just for the show) with 10 to 20 top riders. Otherwise it would be extremely dangerous and pointless.
Perhaps I should have said the purpose of riding in a pack is so you don’t have to run at 100% all the time. If you’re second or third in a line and you’re competitive with the other riders you’re only putting out something like 75%. I’m not saying you can’t get dropped, of course you can. In any race don’t you want to get as close to redline as you can and occasionally dip over without hurting yourself too much?
In reverse you have outlined the beauty indeed the acme of road racing - that’s one of the reasons why people do it - fitness is a HUGE component of it but there is also a significant element of strategy involved as well. There is also fascination of the contradictory situation of needing others riders to work with you but also wanting, needing to, at certain times ride their legs right out from underneath them - after all, it’s a race and the first to the line is the winner!
In a round about way, what you want is what you get in the bike leg of a triathlon. What is the bike leg of a triathlon? Is it a bike road race? Well, not really. Is it a time trial? Well, no not really? So what is it? It has the look of a bike ITT, with riders using all the fancy aero TT equipment, using modified ITT spacing rules, but in reality riding head-to-head out on the road in real time, with starts that have been handicapped based on how fast they swam . . are you still with me? It’s my feeling that this complicated explanation with these bastardized rules, has lead to some of the problems that we have in the sport related to drafting, because many triathletes have a poor understanding of what the bike leg of a triathlon is. Many think it’s their own private ITT - but how can it be when you have to share the road with 2,000 other riders and many think of it like a road race, and if they act on that too much they will be penalized or they should be.
So here is the origin of the question: I ride, a lot. I ride with lots of tri and road riders (many are both). Some outstanding riders and some not so great. In conversations I have with these folks when the question of crits especially and sometimes road races comes up I hear things like “No way I want to be in that tight of a pack with everyone elbowing for position. And when one guy goes down, ten riders crash out.” So a lot of people who would/coud race don’t think it’s worth the risk based on the risk (perceived or real) of crashing.
Now to your questions: No one riding in a peleton or on someone else’s tire is running at 100%, you can’t. 85% effort, sure but not 100. So this isn’t that much different. Non-pack riding would of course slow the group down a bit which doesn’t hurt crash risk either.
This kind of a race on road bikes would stil require a lot of strategy with pacing and positioning for passing etc. I’m certainly not claiming something like this would be better than anything else, just had the thought of bringing something new to the table. My interest isn’t so much in trying to make racing more interesting to watch, just purer to race. I care about who the best rider is not tactician.
I don’t understand what you are saying. Anyone could/would RR if not for some excuse not to. Lack of desire to face risks is no less an impediment than lack of fitness, both are reasons that people may chose not to do a bike race. It is like you are saying we should make special races for people who think they are fast (they are in good shape), but don’t want to face any risks. How is their excuse any different than someone who is just unfit but is willing to face the risks? Maybe we should make special races for them also; actually we already do, they are called triathlons;)
You are wrong. In a crit or when a split is happening in a RR, you are frequently on someones wheel at full gas. If you think you can stay in a pack going 85% all the time, you don’t know much about RR.
The kind of race you are proposing has no strategy. It is a TT. The only strategy is to ride as even a pace as possible to get the fastest time.
If there were any significant number of people interested in this someone would be promoting an event.
A hard group ride and bike race are not the same thing. And sitting in a peloton isn’t as easy as it looks. Party because it takes skill (which you alluded to not having the confidence to do) and party because riders make the race. In other words, going uphill, cross-wind gutter racing and so on involve sitting on wheels yet riders get blown off them by the effort.
Anyway, there are already plenty of ultra distance endurance bikes races that are along the lines of what you’re proposing. Not aware of them? Wonder why…
Basically what you are asking is to see a running race run on bikes. Logistically it would not work for a mass start event like the Tour. Maybe as an exhibition event (almost like a post Tour Crit, just for the show) with 10 to 20 top riders. Otherwise it would be extremely dangerous and pointless.
This is actually the strongest argument against. How the HELL do you start the thing? You could do a starting grid a la F1 but then you’d need to have a qualifying session or something to establish the order.
What I like about ST is the ability to test an idea. If it stands on its own, great. If it doesn’t, let if fall. This was merely an idea that I wanted to test. Surely the first time somebody proposed cyclo-cross most thought they were out of their mind.
I don’t think anyone proposed cyclocross. I think it was more like…
“hey guys we’ve ridden this road 100 times this month. Let’s go ride across this field to that other road.”
“are there baguettes over there?”
“oui oui”
“allons-y!”
If you are truly only interested in who the “best” rider is, then as others have suggested, the individual time trial is what you should focus on. In your email you stated that “this kind of a race would still require a lot of strategy with pacing and positioning for passing, etc.” That sounds counter to what your stated goal is. You either want people to just race against the clock to see who is “best” or not.
This really brings up the question of how you define “best”. Your suggestion would likely just show who the best time trialist is. If you look at the pro peloton, I don’t think you can really pick one cyclist and say they are the best. It’s just too subjective and the various disciplines in cycling all have their specialists. With the exception of cyclists like Eddie Merckx (who truly could do it all) you just can’t pick one person and label them the best.
I think the beauty of road races and crits is that the racing is not just about who the strongest rider is. Strategy, tactics, teamwork, etc. all make the sport what it is. If we ran races as you suggested, essentially nothing but time trials, at the ProTour level Fabian Cancellara and Tony Martin would be winning everything and everyone else would likely be racing for third place. Hardly anyone beyond the very best time trialists would even bother showing up.
what do i think? i think you more than likely could not sit in the professional peloton for more than a few miles, let alone separate from the pack and accelerate to speeds in excess of 45 mph. but those guys are just sandbaggers so they suck at cycling right? wrong. idiot.We have draft legal and draft illegal triathlons, maybe it’s now time to try something entirely different.
A non-drafting road race. I’m sick and tired of seeing these teams protect their star riders from the wind with tactics. Or sand baggers hiding out from the breeze until the last 100 yards and pulling ahead for the wind. Any man or woman not pushing their own air is a coward.
Rules: Road course, no teams or team tactics, 3 bike length no-go zone, no intentional touching/elbowing or contact (this isn’t wrestling). May the best MOTOR win.
Have you ever been in a breakaway? The best part of road races or crits is launching an attack and see who can follow. This happens (or doesn’t happen) at all levels!
And, now the ones who broke away and managed to stay away by working really hard have to work together. And, those 3 or 4, or 8 to 10 have to work together and when it is your turn at the front, you have to pull harder than if you were in a TT. They may only produce a winner 10% of the time or less but they still go out and try.
Even without drafting it would still be vastly more interesting than the televised games like baseball and football.
That would be terrible. Team tactics are what makes cycling an awesome sport. Without it you sport more boring than triathlon (from a spectators view).
It also wouldn’t make for much of a race, there would only be a few guys capable of winning it and they’d just rotate depending on how they feel.
So here is the origin of the question: I ride, a lot. I ride with lots of tri and road riders (many are both). Some outstanding riders and some not so great. In conversations I have with these folks when the question of crits especially and sometimes road races comes up I hear things like “No way I want to be in that tight of a pack with everyone elbowing for position. And when one guy goes down, ten riders crash out.” So a lot of people who would/coud race don’t think it’s worth the risk based on the risk (perceived or real) of crashing. I bet I can guess which of the riders that said this are “outstanding” riders or the “not so great” ones…
My background: I don’t road race or ride crits but I do some some pretty aggressive road rides. I’d like to and likely will race but the prospect of taking the risk and potentially breaking a bone with the attached 6 weeks off training makes me think long an hard about the choice I make. Maybe I am a little chickensh!t about this but it seems there are quite a few other that are also. My other observation is that even thought triathlons are not draft legal I always rider harder when I have a rabbit to chase, and there’s no way I’m the only one.
The idea that every crit is a crash-fest, or that people are always getting hurt, is completely blown out of proportion on this board. Go to any race and the amount of actual crashes is pretty low…and even fewer that result in serious injury (broken collarbone, etc). Hell, you likely have a higher chance of getting hurt training out on the open roads.
Now to your questions: No one riding in a peleton or on someone else’s tire is running at 100%, you can’t. 85% effort, sure but not 100. So this isn’t that much different. Non-pack riding would of course slow the group down a bit which doesn’t hurt crash risk either. As others have noted, this is completely false.
This kind of a race on road bikes would stil require a lot of strategy with pacing and positioning for passing etc. I’m certainly not claiming something like this would be better than anything else, just had the thought of bringing something new to the table. My interest isn’t so much in trying to make racing more interesting to watch, just purer to race. I care about who the best rider is not tactician.
Tactics are *part *of deciding who the “best rider” is. The best rider is not just the guy that can put out the most watts. You may as well just have “races” on Computrainers.
We have draft legal and draft illegal triathlons, maybe it’s now time to try something entirely different.
A non-drafting road race. I’m sick and tired of seeing these teams protect their star riders from the wind with tactics. Or sand baggers hiding out from the breeze until the last 100 yards and pulling ahead for the wind. Any man or woman not pushing their own air is a coward.
Rules: Road course, no teams or team tactics, 3 bike length no-go zone, no intentional touching/elbowing or contact (this isn’t wrestling). May the best MOTOR win.
What do you think?
Your Idea = Fail.
You fundamentally do not understand how bike racing works. Before taking lots of time off over the last 14 months, I was on a 1/2 Elite squad, and we had all kinds of strategy and team rules. Everybody on the team has a role. When the team executes properly, the team gets a good result. This is far more satisfying than individual sports. Go promote your own individual sport on its own merits, but don’t think you are going to get guys who love the team aspect of road racing to take interest in what you’re advocating.
Basically what you are asking is to see a running race run on bikes. Logistically it would not work for a mass start event like the Tour. Maybe as an exhibition event (almost like a post Tour Crit, just for the show) with 10 to 20 top riders. Otherwise it would be extremely dangerous and pointless.
This is actually the strongest argument against. How the HELL do you start the thing? You could do a starting grid a la F1 but then you’d need to have a qualifying session or something to establish the order.
What I like about ST is the ability to test an idea. If it stands on its own, great. If it doesn’t, let if fall. This was merely an idea that I wanted to test. Surely the first time somebody proposed cyclo-cross most thought they were out of their mind.
a current pro and a stars and stripes jersey wearer have already chimed in and dismissed your stupid idea. time to let it go and think of some other. you know, maybe all the triathletes could actually learn how to corner and ride in tight spaces.
I don’t think anyone proposed cyclocross. I think it was more like…
“hey guys we’ve ridden this road 100 times this month. Let’s go ride across this field to that other road.”
“are there baguettes over there?”
“oui oui”
“allons-y!”
close, but it’s more like
-goddamn, the roads are frozen
-well, you could slap on 35mm wide tires and ride in the snow
-well, there’s a large field on the other side of the bergen, but it has piles of cow dung
-i’ll consider it. is there dubbels and tripels at the finishing line?
-ja ja
-laten we gann