Group,
I am moving from a 650 bike to a 700 bike, so new race wheels will be required. (BTW, P3C is on order, and a 2000 P3, 54, w/ D/A + Zipp disc, Corima 4 spoke and Mid V will be for sale late spring).
So the question I have is how much will the weight difference of a 808 front v 404 front make on courses like IMC and IMPL, v the aero advantages?
Any thoughts? Tom?
Thanks,
I may be wrong, but I think the published weight difference is around 50 grams. The aerodynamic advantage is significant between the two wheels, but the weight difference isn’t. To me, the bigger factor would be how they handle differently, especially in a crosswind. If you can handle the deep front, I would think that would be the way to go.
I switched to a 404 from a tri-spoke on the front, because of handling issues, but my size (think small and light) makes me more prone to gusts of wind. Or maybe I’m just not a great bike handler.
I would ride the deepest wheel possible on the front.
Hey Brian,
David Daggett here…any other info on the 808 front? I haven’t actually seen one yet. BTW, I enjoyed your post on observing bike positions…I can’t believe some of the positions I see (some folks may say that about me!).
Thanks,
David,
I have not seen the new zipp in person but did see an older hed stinger 90mm front yesterday. It just makes aerodynamic sense to ride the deepest wheels possible. Hope things are well in NC.
I would ride the deepest wheel possible on the front.
Yep…or a HED3.
I went with an 808 set.
I have “raced” down that Keene Hill 10 times now…I would NOT get that 808 front on that course. In the years that it has been raining and windy on that hill I was wishing I did not even have the 404 in front…I would have prefered a 303 or even a standard aero rim. I guess it will depend on if you want to go balls out or what your intentions are on that course. Seems to me we are getting closer and closer to watching people put that disk back on the front of the bike…
Sailing away…
I have “raced” down that Keene Hill 10 times now…I would NOT get that 808 front on that course. In the years that it has been raining and windy on that hill I was wishing I did not even have the 404 in front…I would have prefered a 303 or even a standard aero rim. I guess it will depend on if you want to go balls out or what your intentions are on that course. Seems to me we are getting closer and closer to watching people put that disk back on the front of the bike…
I would not even think of using an 808 on the front in Kona…it is probably not legal anyway due to safety issues…Peter Ried used a 606 set up last year.
Sailing away…
Hey Sam,
Thanks for your thoughts. How do you like your 808 set? Your 2 posts above seem to conflict a bit. Basically #1 is go as deep as you can, and #2 is don’t even try it in Kona. I have ridden 404s, well 440s back then, in Kona with no trouble a couple of times. I am on the bulkier side at 5’10" 175 and control has never been an issue for me…so far.
Thanks for your thoughts,
I agree with Chip 100%. He is a serious bike handler. If he can’t handle it, not many can.
I suffered with a 404 too many years on the Keene hill. I now use a 303.
The odds are in favor of nasty cross winds for nearly 10 miles on that course including the Keene Hill and the approach. A little aero advantage here or there doesn’t mean anything if you are sitting up hitting the brakes and exhausting yourself fighting the bike.
808’s in the front are too deep for a windy day at Kona…I would do a 404 or even a 303…
Here’s a link to a technical paper which actually has some lateral force data from the wind tunnel: http://www.zipp.com/tech/documents/ANoteonRimWidth_002.pdf
The 404 has about 22% less side force than an 808, and a 303 has about 44% less side force than the 808, but of course, this reduction in side force comes with a similar drop in aero performance. Personally, I think the more you ride on the wheels the less of an issue it becomes, and I’ve now been on a pair of 808’s for about 8 months, and don’t notice them anymore even in serious winds. As a rule of thumb you want to go with the most aero stuff you feel comfortable riding, but you have to ride on it with some frequency so as to get a feel for it. We see lots of people who buy discs and come back complaining that they were no faster in their first TT because they were creeped out by the cross-wind effect, but those same people would have been fine if they had just trained on the wheel 2-3 days per week for the month before the event.
I agree Josh…Good job on the 808’s!
Why not a pair of 606s if you are worried about the crosswind stability? It has the 808 rear and 404 front which seems like ideal for almost any condition.
Barefoot
If I get to Kona again…I’ll buy another front wheel…
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