$825 billion package

"Congress released on Thursday details of the $825 billion package, including tax cuts and increase government spending.

On average, the 55 economists surveyed this month, before the details of the plan were released, said the money should be
evenly split between tax cuts and government spending. That stands in contrast to Americans surveyed in the latest Wall
Street Journal/NBC poll, who by a nearly 2-to-1 ratio preferred government spending to create jobs over tax cuts.

The proposal released Thursday seeks about a third of the money to go to tax breaks, while the rest would be devoted
to government spending, which span infrastructure plans to boosts for health care and information technology."

Great, 2/3rds or the money will go to government spending?! Just how well is that going to work out? We know they can spend money
because they do it all the time but I don’t trust the govt. to create new jobs nor to spend the money well. We are the
next Japan. It’s going to take at least 7+ years to recover from this mess if we do indeed recover at all.

The length, depth, and magnitude of the Great Recession will vary proportionately to the fiscal, monetary, and regulatory response of the government. The more they fiddle, the longer we diddle.

Yes, that is mine.

including tax cuts and increase government spending.

Yeah that seems to work out soo well. I’m not for increasing taxes but crap either drop the spending down or increase the taxes. 2 percent now is a hell of a lot better then 10 percent later because we are paying interest on all this spending.

Grant

At least we are not a socialist country.
.

“Great, 2/3rds or the money will go to government spending?! Just how well is that going to work out? We know they can spend money because they do it all the time but I don’t trust the govt. to create new jobs nor to spend the money well.”

Didn’t you get the memo? Bureaucrats can determine how money should be spent and where people should be employed much better than the market can, because they are endowed with omniscience and the rest of us are mere fallible mortals.

At least we are not a socialist country.

Thank the stars for that!!! I would hate to live in a country that depended on government to create jobs, save failing business, provide retirement and send me a check every now and then to spend…uhhh…never mind.

~Matt

I really think the idea that me sending 1$ to Washington and having .50-.70$ get back to the private sector to create jobs is REALLY gonna work this time…REALLY. I’m full of hope!

~Matt

“REALLY. I’m full of hope!”

LOL! Seriously, this latest from the new Democratic Congress may raise hope in the addled minds of some, but I don’t think we can call it change. Given that government spending has been rising essentially at an exponential rate since Bush took office (if not before), I wouldn’t classify this continuation of that exponential curve as “change.”

“Great, 2/3rds or the money will go to government spending?! Just how well is that going to work out? We know they can spend money because they do it all the time but I don’t trust the govt. to create new jobs nor to spend the money well.”

Didn’t you get the memo? Bureaucrats can determine how money should be spent and where people should be employed much better than the market can, because they are endowed with omniscience and the rest of us are mere fallible mortals.
didn’t you get the memo? the unregulated unfettered free market you champion is what got us in this mess in the first place.

I wouldn’t classify this continuation of that exponential curve as “change.”

Come on! They’re “Changing the curve”. It’s defintely curving further and further up.

I actually think they believe that spending levels as a percentage of GDP similar to that of WWII are completely acceptable and in their minds maybe necessary.

I’m looking forward to the rationing :slight_smile:

~Matt

Hmmm… I guess the free market somehow caused this by being totally absent from the situation. Yeah, that must be it.

so george w bush and his 8 years of anti regulation government had nothing to do with this fiscal meltdown? in fact he wasn’t anti regulation enough and thats what caused it??? am i reading you correctly?

he isn’t even out of office yet and the revisionist historians are at work.

“REALLY. I’m full of hope!”

LOL! Seriously, this latest from the new Democratic Congress may raise hope in the addled minds of some, but I don’t think we can call it change. Given that government spending has been rising essentially at an exponential rate since Bush took office (if not before), I wouldn’t classify this continuation of that exponential curve as “change.”

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.html
As a percentage, government spending increases along with GDP. The $15 Trillion question is how much government spending helped increase GDP.
One fact is that since 1930 there is no such thing as smaller government under any administration or Congress.

Government spending in 1930 was $12 billion versus GDP of $91.2 Billion or about 13.5% of GDP
In 1950, spending was $70 billion versus a GDP of $294 billion or about 24% of GDP
In 1970, spending was $321 billion versus $1 Trillion in GDP or 32% of GDP
In 1990, spending was $2.1 trillion versus $5.7 trillion of GDP or about 36% of GDP
In 2010, spending is projected to be $5.6 trillion versus $15.8 trillion of GDP or about 36% of GDP

Interesting note. Our GDP in 1990 is close to our spending just 20 years later in 2010 with overall spending doubling and the GDP almost tripling.

Hmmm… I guess the free market somehow caused this by being totally absent from the situation. Yeah, that must be it.

I’m certain the above line could be made into and editorial or political cartoon.

“Free Market” standing outside a house peering in the window at “Freddie, Fannie, CRA, Country Wide, BOA…etc”. Balloon over it’s head “Hey why wasn’t I invited to the party”

~Matt

I’ve heard the idea of “Deregulation” throw out as “the reason” or “A reason” and more specifically deregulation by Bush. I’m curious as to what people are exactly talking about when the say “Bush deregulated”.

I have a few things in mind, I’m just wondering what most people are talking about.

~Matt

If you actually read into it instead of getting information from CNN and CNBC and believe what they tell you, the problem was REGULATION (very specifically regulation put in place after Enron trying to regulate ethics) and this little thing called freddie and fanny.

The following is taken from an article by George Reisman on 10-23-08:

The utter absurdity of statements claiming that the present political-economic environment of the United States in some sense represents laissez-faire capitalism becomes as glaringly obvious as anything can be when one keeps in mind the extremely limited role of government under laissez-faire and then considers the following facts about the present-day United States:
Government spending in the United States currently equals more than forty percent of national income, i.e., the sum of all wages and salaries and profits and interest earned in the country. This is without counting any of the massive off-budget spending such as that on account of the government enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Nor does it count any of the recent spending on assorted “bailouts.” What this means is that substantially more than forty dollars of every one hundred dollars of output are appropriated by the government against the will of the individual citizens who produce that output. The money and the goods involved are turned over to the government only because the individual citizens wish to stay out of jail. Their freedom to dispose of their own incomes and output is thus violated on a colossal scale. In contrast, under laissez-faire capitalism, government spending would be on such a modest scale that a mere revenue tariff might be sufficient to support it. The corporate and individual income taxes, inheritance and capital gains taxes, and social security and Medicare taxes would not exist.
There are presently fifteen federal cabinet departments, nine of which exist for the very purpose of respectively interfering with housing, transportation, healthcare, education, energy, mining, agriculture, labor, and commerce, and virtually all of which nowadays routinely ride roughshod over one or more important aspects of the economic freedom of the individual. Under laissez-faire capitalism, eleven of the fifteen cabinet departments would cease to exist and only the departments of justice, defense, state, and treasury would remain. Within those departments, moreover, further reductions would be made, such as the abolition of the IRS in the Treasury Department and the Antitrust Division in the Department of Justice.
The economic interference of today’s cabinet departments is reinforced and amplified by more than one hundred federal agencies and commissions, the most well known of which include, besides the IRS, the FRB and FDIC, the FBI and CIA, the EPA, FDA, SEC, CFTC, NLRB, FTC, FCC, FERC, FEMA, FAA, CAA, INS, OHSA, CPSC, NHTSA, EEOC, BATF, DEA, NIH, and NASA. Under laissez-faire capitalism, all such agencies and commissions would be done away with, with the exception of the FBI, which would be reduced to the legitimate functions of counterespionage and combating crimes against person or property that take place across state lines.
To complete this catalog of government interference and its trampling of any vestige of laissez faire, as of the end of 2007, the last full year for which data are available, the Federal Register contained fully seventy-three thousand pages of detailed government regulations. This is an increase of more than ten thousand pages since 1978, the very years during which our system, according to one of The New York Times articles quoted above, has been “tilted in favor of business deregulation and against new rules.” Under laissez-faire capitalism, there would be no Federal Register. The activities of the remaining government departments and their subdivisions would be controlled exclusively by duly enacted legislation, not the rule-making of unelected government officials.
And, of course, to all of this must be added the further massive apparatus of laws, departments, agencies, and regulations at the state and local level. Under laissez-faire capitalism, these too for the most part would be completely abolished and what remained would reflect the same kind of radical reductions in the size and scope of government activity as those carried out on the federal level.
What this brief account has shown is that the politico-economic system of the United States today is so far removed from laissez-faire capitalism that it is closer to the system of a police state. The ability of the media to ignore all of the massive government interference that exists today and to characterize our present economic system as one of laissez faire and economic freedom marks it as, if not profoundly dishonest, then as nothing less than delusional.

isn’t there a cabin somewhere in montana where you’re supposed to be right now?

“so george w bush and his 8 years of anti regulation government had nothing to do with this fiscal meltdown?”

I’m not sure that GWB’s IQ is high enough that he could grasp the concept of a free market even if he cared a whit.

Given that the basic information-signaling mechanism of the marketplace, especially financial markets, is interest rates, and given that the central bank has been relentlessly manipulating interest rates in recent years, Occam’s razor–if you every heard of it–would suggest that we look first at the simplest explanation: namely, that the two are related. Of course, Occam’s razor also demands that we consider the other statist manipulations that were going on at the same time, but let’s consider just that one here.

I wrote the following little piece on that subject last fall for someone’s Congressional campaign. O-as-D, it’s obvious that the sclerosis of statist ideology has already set in in your mind, but others here may find it informative.


**How Did We Get into This Financial Crisis? **

Many of our current politicians would have you believe that the current financial crisis represents a “failure of the free market.” The truth is quite the opposite. In order to understand how this dire situation arose, we need to look at the differences between a free economy and our current interventionist system, particularly with regard to credit markets and interest rates.

In a free economy, interest rates are a reflection of people’s “time preferences”—which is the economist’s fancy way of saying that consumers and producers would rather receive return on their efforts and investments sooner rather than later. Time preferences are stronger for some individuals than for others, which is why some people become debtors and others become creditors, giving rise to credit markets.

Interest rates have a profound effect on the allocation of resources throughout an economy. When interest rates are high, economic activity is oriented primarily toward providing for immediate or short-term consumer needs, and less value is attached to long-term durable goods, such as land, housing, and industrial plants. When interest rates are low, economic activity is diverted more toward long-term projects, and the value of land, housing, and other long-term durable goods soars.

In our interventionist economy, however, interest rates are determined not by the natural time preferences of the free market, but by a centralized Federal Reserve System, often operating in concert with central banks in other countries. Politicians use this system not only to finance their pet projects, but also to create a false illusion of prosperity through artificially low interest rates. Inflationary, “easy money” policies are politically popular since they lead voters to believe that the economy is humming along nicely. With capital easily available, the future looks rosy and businesses invest readily in ventures whose payoff may be far down the road. With land and housing prices rising seemingly without limit, mortgage rates relatively low, and no end to the economic boom in sight, consumers are eager to borrow in order to partake of the apparently prosperous future ahead.

Unfortunately, a single dose of monetary inflation does not sustain this illusion indefinitely, and as the inflationary policy continues, prices must eventually rise. In order to avoid a wage-price spiral, officials are obliged to hit the brakes. The resulting abrupt increase in interest rates catches both producers and consumers by surprise. Malinvestments in long-term projects, prompted by the previous inflationary boom, are now exposed, causing businesses to go bankrupt. As we have seen recently, the credit crunch hits consumers as well. Homeowners are caught in a “double whammy,” with housing prices plummeting even as financing becomes unavailable.

Certain politicians in Washington are trying to get off the hook by characterizing the situation as a failure of the free economy. In reality, it represents another failure of their own statist, anti-free-market policies.

Rather than bailing out these politicians, let us give economic freedom a chance. Let us vote in politicians like *****, who support a turn to sound-money policies and a free-market banking system.

The interesting thing is that if our government was really limited to certain constitutionally defined functions and all other functions were left to the private sector, one would expect that over time in a growing economy, as the private sector continued to expand, the ratio of government spending to GDP would decrease considerably, eventually approaching zero asymptotically.