Okay buddy, I try to bite my tongue as much as possible but I have to let it out on this one. Let’s just give them the real reason that more people are going to 700c wheels. THEIR FASTER. Let’s study the difference between what we call “QUICK” & “FAST”. But let’s first ask this question? If 700c weren’t as fast as 650c, do you think the Pro’s such as Lance Armstrong,Tyler Hamilton, David Millar, Jans Ullrich, etc…would all still be using them? I think this is enough evidence. Sorry, even though I do my share of Triathlons, I’m still a roadie at heart. In fact, (don’t hold me to the year) in 1995 I believe, Tony Rominger, (former hour record holder) tried 650c in one stage of the Giro and then never again. I think that proved it to him as well? Sorry, I know your back ground, but some times the truth needs to be put out there. 700CC Wheels are FASTER, not QUICKER, than 650CC Wheels. The difference is in the acceleration and the outside rotational weight. But on a long steady TT (excuse me) Ironman course, 700CC wheels will always prevail.
Not to agree or disagree, but by your logic shouldn’t 800c wheels be an advantage over 700c wheels? I mean, when does the bigger-is-better theory stop holding water? Just playin’ Devil’s advocate, but the difficulty in coming up with an answer should give you a hint that the wheel size issue is far from clear-cut.
Very good, I see we do have some other intelligent people out there, and yes, that theroy does seem to run true. Let’s go way back to Moser when he set the original hour record with the hugh 46" rear wheel. Yes, that is getting carried away, and in the industry of cycling and all the governing UCI, USCF, USAT, and others that I may have left out? But they are the ones that have determined that there are only two size of wheels out there. So going with one of the two, you would think we would go with the bigger one to go faster?
Some good points, but you’ve proved me right with the examples of a few riders using them in the hills. With light outside rotational weight, they are easier to excelorate allowing them to turn over faster. But be careful when you try to use the explanation about the MAVIC Cars not carrying 650 wheels. Coming from two years experience working in conjunction with Mavic USA in tech support, we always carried what the riders were using. Tech support is just that, we were there to support the race, not to determine what the riders would ride.
But let’s get back to the original start of this conversation. This is Triathlons we’re talking here and those examples used earlier were just to validate the point as to why more Triathlete’s are going to 700C wheels and not 650? Or is it because MAVIC is now out there and they don’t have any 650 wheels so the athletes don’t want to be left hanging because they don’t know how to change their own flats in under 2 minutes? Sorry, a whole other conversation started there.
Bottom line, 700’s are faster, and if David Millar (who I met just last week at Interbike and isn’t as tall as you may think?) could ride 650’s if he thought they would make him go faster.
It’s also a question of what’s available. I’ve never seen a 650 wheel at all here in Norway, and if you go to other shops in UK, Netherlands, Sweeden, Denmark and Austria (that’s the countries where I have visited several shops) there’s hardly no LBS that have 650 wheels in stock, there’s only a limited number of shops in the entire country.
It would be completely stupid to buy a 650 wheel in such a situation - no chance to get a single tire/tube locally.
So what you are saying is that I would be faster on 700’s. Where is your data to back up your claim? Are you just relying on the industry standard or do you have something to back it up? I could say cats are better than dogs because more domestic families have cats than dogs, does that make it true? Not exactly.
Next, I’m 5’4". I have a 700C road bike and a 650C Tri bike. The head tube of my road bike is about 4 1/2 inches long and puts my shoulders about 3 inches higher than my tri bike does and thats with a downward sloping stem. So, technicaly I would be slower on my 700s because of the aero position. I also can hit my front wheel with my shoes, a hazard for me.
Next, the 700C Tri bikes are all too long for me, making me stretch out and be uncomfortable. Will that make me faster, I don’t think so.
Next, 650C wheels will have a lower rotational inertia. Do the math. There are some arguments that because they spin faster, they will produce more friction due to bearings and spokes cutting through the air faster, but they also have a lower profile, reducing air friction. Please show me something that proves that they would be slower in that respect. Note…I work in a testing lab with a wind tunnel and I know BS data when I see it.
Next, where is you information comming from that tells you that more triathletes are using 700’s? Please point me to your sources. Is that from your observations or from race entries around the world listing what kind of bikes people are riding?
Francois has other good points that I will not repeat.
It seems that you haven’t done any tests at all and are just expressing your opinion, good for you, but I will pick fit before wheel size every time.
jaretj
I agree with jaretj. And I too have a short inseam (29"). I had a 700c Cannondale road bike and no matter what I did I could not get low enough. Switched to a smaller 650c Cervelo frame and my position was much lower. THIS enabled me to get aero and faster. I think you are splitting hairs on required effort between 650c and 700c wheels. There are advantages and disadvantages with both.
650c wheels have a smaller profile from the side, so not as much wind resistance. And you always have to factor in wind from the side. You also have less tire/wheel choices with 650c. Usually a 650c frame is physically smaller and lighter - there’s just less there - thus faster (less resistance again). Fork is smaller and lighter. 650c wheels spin up quicker - true. For a technical course where you’re out of the saddle, cranking out of corners back up to speed, 650c wins.
In contrast, once at speed, 700c holds speed with less effort. Unless the sidewind is substantial. Then the 700c wheel’s larger surface area can hurt you. Plenty of tire/wheel choices in size 700c. And it’s probably tradition that the Euros ride 700c. Remember the whole reason for 650c is to get forward and down into aero position. Road racers have no reason to use 650c since they can’t use aerobars. And if Lance had a short inseam, he would probably have to use 650c to get aero enough. At least for the ITTs in the TDF. He wouldn’t need 650c on his road bike.
BTW, many of the fast triathletes I know and train with use 650c wheels. Some are 5’ 10"+, so go figure.
Sorry Jaret, but you’re not even comparing apples to apples with your statement so I won’t even get into answering your questions. This whole topic started from this website if you read it other than just the forums, getting opinons from others that really don’t know? Read this link and ask them the same questions. 700c ARE faster, sorry you wasted your money on 650’s and have to somehow justify your purchase.
http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/kona2003/survey03/wheelsize03.html
Mr. Plummer, Jaret asked “Where is your data to back up your claim?”. You said you wouldn’t bother to answer his question. Do you have data or not? If so, post it. If not, don’t bother to reply.
“If 700c weren’t as fast as 650c, do you think the Pro’s such as Lance Armstrong,Tyler Hamilton, David Millar, Jans Ullrich, etc…would all still be using them?”
funny thing, most of the fastest long course bike times throughout triathlon’s history, men and women, were set on dual 650c wheels (and in some cases dual 24" wheels). hellriegel, zack, dittrich, browning, newby, liz downing, julieanne white, badmann, bowden, and many others rode dual 650s for their fastest rides.
do i think 650c wheels are faster? probably not. but they allow smaller bikes, and tri bikes, to be built with better geometry. i doubt there’s any meaningful difference in raw speed.
speaking of pro cyclists, before the era of aero bars almost all the pro cyclists rode 24" or 26" front wheels in time trials, and nost just TTTs. it was because of a geometrical advantage, partially the same reasoning behind using 650c in tri bikes.
Sorry Jaret, but you’re not even comparing apples to apples with your statement so I won’t even get into answering your questions. This whole topic started from this website if you read it other than just the forums, getting opinons from others that really don’t know? Read this link and ask them the same questions. 700c ARE faster, sorry you wasted your money on 650’s and have to somehow justify your purchase.
-
The whole statement? 650 to 700, that is what I am comparing. Your reply doesn’t make sense. It’s the same thing your comparing.
-
You can’t answer my questions with anything other than opinions.
-
I can’t believe that you are so close minded.
Yes I have read that article, how many of those riders are 5’4" or shorter? You don’t know do you?
I have done it in practice, have you? Probably not, you just look at trends and come up with an arbitrary conclusion.
If you can’t provide proof that one is faster then you have no argument. Opinion is not proof.
jaretj
Sorry Jaret, I wasn’t trying to ignore the question, but the statement about the dogs and cats? I didn’t get it. But what so many people are saying, even in your last post is that people are using 650’s because their smaller. This doesn’t say anything about which wheel is faster, just that they’re able to get a bike to fit them better so those individuals are going faster? But that’s because the bike is fitting them and they’re able to get more aero? That’s another study.
I personally don’t have any data supporting my statement, I leave that up to the people that have the test equipment that can support these statements. Another commment someone made was that they train with some big guys who ride 650s and they’re faster than him? Is that the wheels or are his friends just stronger on the bike? These are the statements that I try to avoid. My original post was simplying saying the more and more PROS are going to 700c wheels “why” because they are obviously doing their research and finding out the the 700s are faster and that’s why theres a rise in the number of bikes using 700c wheels now? Or are they just that much better of an athlete that it doesn’t matter what they ride their still going to kick butt? If that’s the case, then what’s the hype about all this getting lower and more aero? Just get out the and train harder and the training will make you faster. In the PROS case, every second matters, in the other 90% of the population who is only going for their PR or just to finish, none of this is going to make a difference, and the bottom line is they’ll buy what ever the pocket can afford, or how much of a cool factor it has.
Sorry, I’m a realist and think way too many people try to over analize this whole thing and just need to put more effort in their training and not the equipment. Yes, the equipment does make a difference, but so can keeping the 4,000.00 in your pocket instead of buying that new bike. I’m all about the training, not the equipment.
Actually, 650c (and even a few 24") front wheels were quite common until the UCI mandated that the front and rear wheel be of the same size.
Sorry Jaret, I wasn’t trying to ignore the question, but the statement about the dogs and cats? I didn’t get it. But what so many people are saying, even in your last post is that people are using 650’s because their smaller. This doesn’t say anything about which wheel is faster, just that they’re able to get a bike to fit them better so those individuals are going faster? But that’s because the bike is fitting them and they’re able to get more aero? That’s another study.
Yes, it does say that the wheel is faster for different people. I don’t just ride the wheels, I ride the whole bike.
I personally don’t have any data supporting my statement, I leave that up to the people that have the test equipment that can support these statements.
Then give me their data.
Another commment someone made was that they train with some big guys who ride 650s and they’re faster than him? Is that the wheels or are his friends just stronger on the bike? These are the statements that I try to avoid.
I agree with you there.
My original post was simplying saying the more and more PROS are going to 700c wheels “why” because they are obviously doing their research and finding out the the 700s are faster and that’s why theres a rise in the number of bikes using 700c wheels now?
No that wasn’t your origional post
here it is
700CC Wheels are FASTER, not QUICKER, than 650CC Wheels. The difference is in the acceleration and the outside rotational weight. But on a long steady TT (excuse me) Ironman course, 700CC wheels will always prevail.
Or are they just that much better of an athlete that it doesn’t matter what they ride their still going to kick butt? If that’s the case, then what’s the hype about all this getting lower and more aero? Just get out the and train harder and the training will make you faster. In the PROS case, every second matters, in the other 90% of the population who is only going for their PR or just to finish, none of this is going to make a difference, and the bottom line is they’ll buy what ever the pocket can afford, or how much of a cool factor it has.
Pro’s don’t buy bikes, they are given to them
Sorry, I’m a realist and think way too many people try to over analize this whole thing and just need to put more effort in their training and not the equipment. Yes, the equipment does make a difference, but so can keeping the 4,000.00 in your pocket instead of buying that new bike. I’m all about the training, not the equipment.
I finish in the top 30% of my age group on the bike, I’m no pro but I train my butt off too. I have a $1400 bike with stock wheels, not a $4000 bike.
jaretj
Take this how you will, but you should feel a little flattered, you are the only one that I will respond to at this point. Seems that all others just want to try and prove me wrong with asking for the data to support this theory? Does anyone have any data proving otherwise? I’d like to see that and then I’ll humble down and stand corrected, and also let on to who I am other than just a name.
You on the other hand are at least objective and I can talk to. I’m sorry for the big guy that’s 6 foot plus riding 650 wheels saying that he has a good LBS that fit him to the bike. They did the best they could with what they had to work with. If he was on the same/like bike with 700c wheels he’d see the difference if properly fitted from the same LBS?
Thanks Jaret for you comments and open mind. But until someone out there can provide me with the data supporting that 700c wheels ARE NOT faster than 650c, don’t just through out argumentive questions and statements. Just be happy with what you have and continue to justify what you want.
“and also let on to who I am other than just a name.”
We know your name and what you do from your profile.
“But until someone out there can provide me with the data supporting that 700c wheels ARE NOT faster than 650c, don’t just through out argumentive questions and statements.”
Excuse me, but YOU are the one that was making claims about one size wheel being faster than the other. And now WE are supposed to prove your unsubstantiated claims as false? I don’t think anybody other than yourself feels that either size wheel is faster.
All this talk about aerodynamics, speed, rotational weight is bollocks.
Dan gave you the answer, and has given it many times. The reason that he started using 650c wheels on his tri bikes was because it allowed for steep seat tubes without sacrificing handling. It allowed him to shorten the chainstays and get a better weight distribution between the front and rear wheels.
You are all just wasting time and your own hot air.
Craig
Your position on the cervelo had to do with the geometry, not the wheel size. The 650C wheels allowed Cervelo to make a bike that allowed you to get low and handle properly.
Your Canondale ROAD bike with its ROAD geometry is the reason you couldn’t get low enough. You are comparing apples and oranges here.
Thank you Craig for putting this information out there. I didn’t want to get into what Dan said from the begining because I don’t have any data to substain that either? I’ve known Dan for many years and know all about that as well as the shorter top tube for better position along with the steeper seat tube angle.
Thanks again for you insight.
Mr. Plummber
Your point seems to be which wheels are faster and not which bike set-up is the fastest. Shouldn’t a person be more concerned about the total bike set-up and not just the wheels? Wouldn’t certain wheels be better in different situations than other wheels? I have ridden both 650c wheels and 700 c wheels and it is hard for me to tell the difference.