First of all, I’m the training partner that Dan speaks of in his article. I was a pro bike racer who raced 700c wheels on the road and in time trials. I began my pro triathlon career using 700c wheels and moved over to 650’s when they became avaiable in the late 80’s. I would never go back to the big wheels, and here’s why…
650’s are 1. Lighter 2. more aerodynamic 3. have a lighter tire and rim which is much closer to the hub. Rotating weight away from the hub is the most important weight when considering a wheel, not the hub. 4. The smaller tires can hold more tire pressure, and thus reduce the the increased rolling resistance caused by spinning faster. 5. They accelerate quicker.
Not to mention the better frame geometry that can be achieved on smaller bikes, it just puts the rider in a better aero position. (lower to the ground)
The old records that Dan talks about that still stand today are anecdotal evidence that they work better. Those guys who set those records are mostly still racing today on 700’s, so you can’t say it was just a better crop of athletes. Why have they switched? Mostly because, like others have stated in other threads, the bike shops and companies are trying their best to sell the 700’s over the 650’s. Most pros can’t even work on their own bikes, let alone know how the darn things works. They will ride whatever their sponsors give them, and right now that is the big, clunky 700c bikes. And to go a step farther, Paula Newby-Frasier set most of her bike records on 24 inch wheels. And these were times that rivaled a good pro mens time. Figure that one out…
Lastly, I just know I ride faster on these smaller wheels. I can feel it, and when I descend with a group I just roll away from them, even the heavier guys. And the faster the speeds, the greater the advantage, which makes sense if you believe in the advantages I outlined above. They get more magnified as the speed increases…
You are right on the money. I used to ride 700s as well. Never been faster than on my 650c wheels for the past few years. I cannot get low enough on a 700c bike - because of the size of the wheels. Puts me too high. 650s rock!
Monty…I am assuming that you are talking about Hellriegel pulling away form the likes of Mark Allen in 1995 to the tune of a 13 min lead off the bike with a Centurion using 650 ? Last year at kona he was riding a 700 Cannondale and rode away from “nobody” ?
Yes, Helligral, Zack, and most of the other top Euros were riding 650c wheels. I remember that Principia was the bike of choice back then, except that Zack was using a 650 Softride… A lot of QR copies were coming out then, and the bike splits just rocked, year after year…
Ok let’s assume for the moment that I agree with the stated opinion that 650s are faster than 700s, but I still have a couple of questions.
First, do you train solely on your tri-bike or do you train on a road bike? If road bike who manufactures 650 road bikes?
Second, in the event that you do trian (or know someone that does) on 700s and race on 650s do you notice a difference in terms of adjusting to the smaller size and its corresponding differences in feel and handling?
Do you have a similarly setup 700c bike that you could compare decending on (vs. the group)? While I grant you that 650c should be slightly more aero, I’m struggling to believe it is significant vs. aerodynamics of the rider on a fast hill. Rolling resistance I’d think is insignificant vs aero drag on a downhill (which is to the benefit of 650).
I sort of figured guys were going to 700c for comfort on many of the ironman courses, ie NZ. I find a big difference in absorption of road bumps and vibrations…a heck of a lot more than aluminum vs carbon.
how tall are you/how much do you weigh? I started riding 650 and switched to 700 this year because
a. everyone kept telling me that a guy my size shouldn’t ride 650 (including on this forum)
b. easier to switch wheels with road bike
c. easier to find tires
I have felt that the 650 was quicker, but I couldn’t specifically say faster. My times have been about the same as last year, even though I got a disk wheel. I thought it was because my fitness suffered in the spring, is it due to what you are saying?
Then again, in 1996, LVL went wheel to wheel with Hellriegel on the bike and then went 8;04 after sitting in the penalty box. Did he not ride dual 700, or was that the year that he had a Colnago with a 650 front and 700 rear ? Certainly all the women bike course records seem to be on bikes with smaller wheels.
By the way, to the person who was asking, the Kestrel 500 is a road bike with 650 wheels (ie 73 degree seat tube angle even though it has no real seat tube). The QR Palomar is also a 650 road bike, but I doubt it is useful for many of the medium to larger size men on this forum.
You are giving the pros way too much credit. If you use a wheel for one paticular course, to make yourself more comfortable, then you just don’t get it. Sure you can use a mushy wheel, low pressure tire, and ride like a rolls royce in NZ. But if you want to go fast, then stiffen up the wheel, and bomb the tire pressure, and just suck it up on the rough road. At the end of the day I would rather go fast and take a beating, than go slow and feel comfortable…
And yes, I ocasionally ride 700c bikes. We have a bunch of different ones up here for our campers to borrow, and I can’t wait to get off them when I take one out…
Tony Rominger used a dual 650 wheel road bike in the Tour de France back in the 1992 or 1993 race for climbing stages since they are lighter and have less rotating weight as Monty correctly pointed out.
By the way, my road bike is a 700 wheel Kestrel 200 (54). Tribike is a 700 wheel Guru Trilite (51). I chose to go with 700’s on the tribike for wheel interchangeability issues between the two bikes as well as tire and tube availability. I have twice had to by tires in the middle of knowhere on vacations and luckily been able to get them at a local all purpose sports store since I was riding on 700. This is the only real reason why I ride 700. I think 650’s are actually marginally faster.
Did the tour guys ride aero bars before Lemond? (Triathletes had them for 4 or 5 years before) Did they ride steep angles with aero wheels until recently? NO. If you want to use these guys for your anecdotal evidence, then you are going to have a very weak arguement. They follow the trends well after they have been shoved down their throats, and usually kicking and screeming…
As for Bjorn. He uses a traditional bike geometry and does push a massive gear. He has yet to show that this makes a better triathlete. He is a great rider, but then again there are other time trialers are a bit faster than him, and presumably spin more. I think that he is young and very strong, and willl eventually evolve into a great triathlete, and years from now he will be riding differently than now… We all made mistakes when we were young, and if you are smart you learn from them, and grow…
… We all made mistakes when we were young, and if you are smart you learn from them, and grow…
…Sadly, I made mistakes 20 years ago when I was young and first doing tris, and now that I am 20 years older, I make just as many mistakes and often repeat the old ones…maybe its just me trying to hang on to my youth :-). I do spin at >100 RPM now whenever possible on flats and >85 on hills.
Actually to add to his statement… A buddy of mine turned pro a couple of years back. He still thinks he was faster back in in his AG days when he was riding a steep 650c bike. (he is about 5’10") The worst part is that he came from a swimming/running background and he was TORCHING everybody on the bike. Even the roadies on there 700c time trial bikes.
Anyway, he has a bike sponsor and has to ride 700c because it was all they offered and he is racing primarily draft legal. He sold his old bike and wheels to help pay for the hard life of a BOP pro. He still talks about the good ol’ days.
This is the classic Beta max vs VHS or Mac vs PC debate. The better idea doesn’t always win. In fact it often fails.
I agree with monty – the 650 wheel is better for going really fast. I really like how much stiffer the wheels are (vs similar 700). But in the real world finding tires and tubes became a real pain in the butt and like Dev I’m back on 700s.
Your’re exactly right. The Beta and Mac are both superior to their competitors, but the public at large will follow the marketing, rather than the performance. This is happening now to the wheel size.To those who just have to do it because of avaiability, JUST STOCK UP!!! I buy a lot of tubes and tires and keep some patches in my bike pak in case I split a sidewall…I do understand what you are saying though. I drink Gatoraide because I can get it at any 7/11 or market in the middle of no where, not because it better than the endurance specific drinks…
Brahs, all I know is that I started this sport on a used Klein Quantum with 700c wheels, and I couldn’t run for s*&# off the bike. When I got my first 650c tri bike (a QR Kilo PR), I was able to run a 3:06 marathon off the bike at the IM distance. I know a lot of that was due to better and higher-quality training and whatnot, but I can feel it in my bones that a steep angle (78-80 degrees) 650c is the way to go.
As to the wide availability of 700c vs. 650 tires and tubes, well…that’s why I always stock up on that stuff and check ahead to make sure I can reasonably find a store that’s familiar with tri bikes etc. if I should need something done beyond my own abilities to fix.
Paul, thanks for the info on 650 road bikes. However, if memory serves me correctly Kestrel no longer manufactures the 500 SCI or EMS, as for the QR Palomar I do not remember seeing it listed on their web site. Do you know of anyone currently offering road bikes with 650 wheels? Or is this really a moot point because you train on 700s and race on 650s, and don’t care that you have to have several sets of non-compatible wheels?