5:45 to 5:10 in a half...realistic?

Triathlon Forum
1

Hi folks

I am toying with my next set of tri goals, and I want to know how hard you guys think this would be to do. This is the half I did in early January. I did 6:04 in 2004, and 5:45 this year. I would like to aim for a 10% improvement in the same event. My splits for this year were 44:23/2:54/2:07. I think the swim and T1 could give me 14mins, bike and T2 10, and the run another 10. I am really keen on working towards this for the next 11 months, and then perhaps looking to do an IM. But for the moment this half is like a pea under my pillow - I want to scratch that itch baby!

Background: This is my third season of tris, I have done 16 races: 12 sprints, one oly, 3 halfs. I’m a chunky 36yrold (would like to be a whippet thin 36yr old), and I feel like I have lots of potential left in this sport.

Oh, and I love training as much as racing.

Comments please.

Patrick

ps no flames please - I know I am slow. I just want to be a bit less slow.

2

Sure, 5:10 is doable. You won’t likely make up much more than 10 mins though on the swim and T1 since that is the most difficult sport (swimming) to make up time in. You can probably make up some time on the bike and a fair bit on the run.

3

don’t limit yourself on “time-goals”. Who says you can improve from 5:45 to 5:10. Maybe you can. BUT maybe you can improve much more. So why limit yourself on “time goals”?

Rather than having a goal for a certain time, have goals that make you faster. If you know you have to increase the duration of your long rides, make that one of your goals. From your swim split I would suggest finding a coach and swimming with a program. That could be another goal of yours. If you think increasing your running frequency and/or duration should be a goal of yours, then put that one on the list as well.

Rather than going to a race with specific times in mind, go there with specific goals, e.g swim efficiently, focus on breathing out, don’t bike for the bike split (yes, easier said than done…), have a prerace and race nutrition plan, etc.

don’t limit yourself with times. identify what you have to work on, make a plan and have the goal of sticking to your plan.

good luck,

d

5

Hells yeah, baby! You can totally do that! I was in a similar position last year, when I did my first two 1/2IMs. The first one was in 6:12 (capped by a not-very-fun 2:46 run). Then 5 weeks later I pulled off 5:24 on a much harder course. It’s ALL about the proper training. Get a coach and set the race as your “A” race for the season, do the training, and watch the time tick away.

-Colin

6

Here’s my 2.5 cents…

If you’re a bit chunky, that should be priority #1. You’ve shown that you can do the distance, so now you need to tighten up a bit. Go run a 800m at a track. Then, do it again with a 15lb vest on. This will change your mind pretty quick about what’s most important.

If losing weight doesn’t make you faster, you’ll (at least) be more efficient.

As for your performance…this a just a total guess on law of averages:

Your swim can improve by 5-8 minutes by going to master’s class 2x a week. Pounding out endless solo meters is worthless if you’re looking for improvement. I’m not a big fan of Master’s testosterone, but it works.

Bike. Spend more time on the bike, mostly to be efficient. Perhaps worth of 5-10 minute gain, but (IMO) I wouldn’t push it. Use your strength to save yourself for the run.

Run. Weight - see above. It’s a toughy. I’m a firm believer in that you can predict your long run times from short races combined with your training program. The risk is injury, but well worth taking…

5:10 doable? Absolutely if you work your ass off and can mentality overcome your prior barriers.

Good luck.

7

We have set the same targets. I did a 5:45 in a half last year and want to hit 5:10 this year in the same race.

First, I’m not banking on too much of a time savings in the swim. However, I am training for the swim a little more so that I can exit the water w/ a lower heartrate. Bascially, never going anaerobic while in the water.

Second, I’ve done a bunch of heartrate running this year to get my average heartrate down on a decently paced run. Very little speed work. Most LSD runs. I don’t feel any faster than last year, but i’m running at the same pace at a lower heartrate.

Third, I’m biking a bunch. Lots of long rides. Going extra long on the bike. 4 to 5 hour rides to prepare for the half IM. My goal is to exit the bike w/ fresh legs.

That’s my stategy…

8

I think the post that said why limit yourself, is right on. I coached a fellow a few years back that was similar to you - right about the same times too. He wanted to go 5:45 to 5:05 - I thought he was nuts, but that tells you that even a coach knows an athlete’s limits. I told him he had to do everything I put on the plan - and he did. One of the most dedicated athletes I have ever coached. This athlete is a former Mr MI in body building - so discipline wasn’t a problem. We brought his swim down to :31 and I think he ran close to 1:50 (down from a 2:13) in his previous 1/2 IM. So even that shocked me - on top of everything. I wouldn’t set limits - but get your nutrtition in order first, get a good solid plan, work on aerobic endurance and efficiency in everything, and then you will see some results. The easiest way to see improvement is to give yourself bi-monthly time trials - like 2k or 3k in the pool, and longer runs and bikes. As you see improvement you will have a pretty good idea what your times are likely to be. Of course all training in the world is useless if you don’t pace correctly and have your race day nutrition dialed in…so - lots for you to get started on - but you have a lot to look forward to on your journey. Like the other post mentioned, get the LBS off and get the nutrition squared away. That alone will save you a lot of energy.

Good luck!

Mike Ricci

9

Sheesh, great advice all the way up this thread. I am truly humbled.
I wish I could post the link to the race photos, so you folks could check out my chunkiness. Actually, maybe that is a good thing! I think I raced at 93ks, and then had a good couple of weeks and got down to 91, and now I would be back to 92. It’s just discipline, and consistency. I know what I need to do. I should be able to hold at 88 in a few months.
The annoying thing about these times of mine is that, at a lighter weight, I have PBs of 20/42/1:37 for stand alone 5/10/21ks. This was about 3 years ago. Those times are not too bad for a big mid thirty something…and if I could drop some weight that would transfer into faster run times, for sure.

Any other tips? Feeling pretty fired up now, for sure…only 11 months to go!

10

Pat,

I’m certainly no coach, but it does look like your biggest gains are to be found found on the run. Your 1:37 PR for the standalone 21k vs your 2:07 HIM gives you an indication of your potential. If you can turn your 2:07 to say a 1:45 its pretty much job done. Swim will definitely be the hardest place to make significant gains as other more experienced people than I have commented - your goal should be to exit the water as fresh as possible. Add plenty of cycling to the mix and 11 months in which to achieve it and why not? Good luck and let us all know how you get on.

UKJC

11

Totally doable.

My first 1/2 was 5:28.

This past season, with smarter training, faster transitions and great conditions, i went 5:00.

2003 - 213 overall 24/44 M1829 | | 35 436 41:04 2:04 | | 20 122 2:51:45 31.4 | | 26 280 1:55:19 8:49 | | 5:28:07

2004 - 114 overall 15/37 M1829 | | 28 327 40:05 2:01 | | 9 51 2:32:27 35.4 | | 20 170 1:47:42 5:07 | | 5:00:13

The biggest difference wasn’t so much the time actually spent on the bike for me…i was faster (about 6km/h); but the difference of about 8 minutes of total transition time. You’d be surprised of all the time you can spend sitting around on your ass doing nothing useful. I’m not sure what your previous transitions are; but i went from around 10 total, to 2:30 total. Practice. As well…lots of long bike miles made a HUGE difference. Some say specificity matters, but i believe that overall fitness carries over.

Good luck!!! Aim high! :smiley:

12

Add a weekly run speed workout. Option 1 would be a 20min W/U (I would run to the track) then do a set of 800s with 2-3 min rest. Run them quickly so you are breathing heavy after each one. Start out doing 2 then build on that. Option 2 would be Fartlek runs. Go out for a run and after about 20 min or so run a little faster that race pace for a minute. Run slower (recovery speed, but running) for 2 minutes. Start with 2-3 of those then build. Be sure to run another 10-20 min after for cool down and stretch after.

This should help some and keep up the good work.

13

Hell yes you can do it. Get the weight off. It helped my running a ton. Last year in prep for an IM I really fought to get my weight down, but when I did it paid off. PRed every sprint/oly I did. I got down to 180 after racing at 200 for a few years.

The swim will be the hardest to improve that much (get a swim coach for technique). But you can get the bike and run, or more.

Good Luck

14

Kiwipat,

The Big EE here. I’ll be a 40-year-old Clydesdale this May.

I went from 5:57 and 6:00 in my first two half IMs to 5:05 and 5:12 last year (the 5:05 had a weather-shortened swim, it was probably closer to a 5:15 effort).

The key for me was simply more steady-state training. I cranked up the volume and it made a big difference. I had lots of run-specific blocks built into my offseason where I was running 50-plus-mile weeks (that’s high for me). I did similar things in the spring and early summer with bike-specific training.

I absorbed as much run and bike mileage as I could stand (while still balancing life, work, a wife, and two little rugrats), and backed off a lot on the intensity and pool time. I ran about 1,600 miles last year, and my run times improved significantly.

There is no magic formula. Train often, train wisely, then execute on race day.

– Big EE

15

2003 Tupper Lake hIM 5:54

2004 Tupper Lake hIM 5:08 (and this was with a slightly longer run course)

2003 was essentially my return to triathlon after taking most of the ‘90s off from the sport. I did race extensively in the 1980’s.

The How?

2003 – Returning to triathlon, 30 pounds over old race weight in the winter (5’4”, ~ 170 lbs). “ Raced” Tupper Lake at 157 lbs.

2004 - Raced Tupper Lake at 141 lbs in preparation for first full IM (IMC). This was an improvement of 19 minutes on my previous best hIM time (Muncie Endurathon, 1986).

Weight loss was a primary factor for the improvement, but a more subtle detail was a change in training habits:

Training through June of each year (November of previous year to end of June):

Year Swim yds Bike miles Run miles

2003 17,700 714 311

2004 228,475 2929 936

· Other factors included picking up a copy of Total Immersion and working on form in the pool.

· Finished rereading Training Bible for the third time in late 2003 and applied the principles and incorporated the training plan into a schedule, ultimately training according to a real schedule for the first time in my life.

· I bought my first real tri bike in February 2004. Interestingly, I wasn’t all that much faster on the bike last year (2:46 vs 2:57 for the year before). However, I was more comfortable and I ran off the bike better. You can debate how much was due to more run and bike mileage and how much was due to bike geometry.

· Added serious weight training and core strength training to my weekly workouts.

This year, I want to break 5 hours, a time I never thought possible before.

So, yes I think it is doable if you make the commitment.

One last thing, I turned 50 last year, so I think this is doable for a lot of people.

17

I’ll jump on the bandwagon…

My first half in 2003 (Iron Star in Houston) was 6:10 (although, the bike was 3 miles long, and I ran about an extra 1/4 mile when I missed a turn-around). In 2004, I did Gulf Coast in 5:30 and HalfMax in 5:11.

It can be done.

18

I suggest you find someone who can look at your swimming technique. You can knock off huge chunks of time with some overhauling of your stroke. I’ve seen swimmers, when I was coaching, come into our program at say 29min 1500m and swim a 22min two weeks later. All b/c we would spend the first two weeks ripping and fixing their stroke. 3-5 min drops were the norm but up to 10 min drops were seen.

19

Kiwipat,

Here’s my $0.02 (USDollars, dunno what the exchange rate is today)

Instead of some amorphous, “I wanna save this much time here, and that much time there”, why not give yourself some actual target splits to shoot for, such that when combined, along with a reasonably quick T1 and T2, will get you to you target overall time. My A race this year is the Timberman, so what I did was, look at last year’s results, and then play with the #‘s according to how I normally finish vs. the field, to see what kind of splits that might give me. Then, plan how to get from “here” to “there” - you’ve got 11 months, that’s plenny o’ time.

Swim - pick a target time that, with improvement in your stroke and swim fitness, is doable for you, or perhaps a bit of a stretch. (I suck at swimming, so I’m personally shooting for a swim split at approx the 50% mark - which for me actually represents a big improvement, but is also realistic)

Bike - shoot for a target time that is “fast”, but also one such that you won’t be shattered for the run. Like Eddy Merckx said, “ride lots”.

Run - for a “gravity-challenged” dude, you are a pretty fast runner based on yer stand-alone times. Like everybody said, you drop a few Kg’s and yer golden. I’ve personally stated doing the ChiRunning style over the last few months, and my running has improved dramatically. Economy of form is “free speed”, so you want to maximize that in all 3 disciplines.

I’ve often trained w/ a 5lb weight in my Camelbak as a “training aid” for climbing on the bike - it never ceases to amaze me how noticeable a difference a mere 5 lbs is. 10-15-20 lbs (you can convert to Kg’s) would be HUGE. Drop a Kg or 2 a month for the next 10 months, and you’ll be good to go.

Good on ya, mate - go for it!!!

-M

20

It can be done…

2003 Eagleman I went 6:05, and this past year I went 4:30.

I biked 6 days a week (using the 3 hour Spinnerval 2x/wk) and ran a lot.

I came from a swimming background and swam about 3 times a week–15g Meters.

I met Mark Allen and he was told about my time drops and said “Man, I wish I could drop that type of time.” Needless to say, I was speechless. My only other race in 2003 and the time drop was as follows:

2003 NYC Tri (Du) 2:50
2004 NYC Tri: 2:06

Work hard, be smart, rest, anything can be done. Losing 40 pounds helps as well. But that will come with the training.

22

You should look at this way, if you were thin as a rail and wanted to improve that much, the job would be harder. Excess weight really kills your run speed as I’m sure you know.

23

Lemme modify what I posted about time goals, it probably fits in better with what TGL and others have said (inasmuch as not limiting yerself needlessly, with which I agree 100%)

I actually set 3 time goals for each split: the “just finish” goal, the goal time, and the “wow, I’m having a great day!” stretch goal.

You never know when the planets are going to line up just right, your biorythms are in synch, you got some the nite before, whatever - so certainly allow yerself room on the positive side for doing better.

For the ‘don’t set goals’ crowd - how do you know what to shoot for if you don’t have a target to aim at? (aka - if you don’t know where you are going, then how do you know when you get there?")

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Isn’t that what pretty much everything printed everywhere says you are supposed to do? Stay within yourself on the bike, negative split the run. It sounds like you raced a very intelligent, disciplined race strategy. What if in fact you hadn’t slowed down, and then cratered on the run? PS - nice race!!! 5:20 is nothing to sneeze at.

Anyway, different strokes fer different folks. Take what you can use from here, some of it will work for you, some wont.