If you were going to get a new set, which would you get?
Like all compromises, upon first inspection, the 606 seems like the way to go. But in reality, are they like triathletes - good at 3, great at nothing?
Go for the 606’s they seem the best set-up for any course and/or condition. I am a little biased as my 606’s are due to arrive in the next few days.
Which ones are more expensive?
404 then 606 then 808 in that order with the separation from least to most at about $350
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From a purely technical perspective the breakdown goes like this:
The 808 will be about 16-18 seconds faster than the 606 and the 606 will be about 12-14 seconds faster than the 404 in a 40k (the front wheel has slightly greater impact than the rear).
The 808 is essentially dead equal to a 909 in a 40k as the front 808 is faster than the front 909 by the same margin that the rear 808 is slower than the disc, so from that perspective the 808 is slightly lighter and cheaper than a 909 while being just as fast and is Kona and UCI legal, so that makes it a great deal. The downside is that the front 808 exhibits ~30% higher side force in a crosswind than the 909 front (the 808 still has ~32% less side force than a 3 spoke).
The other considerations are comfort and steering torque. The 808 is the most comfortable wheel we’ve ever made due to high sidewall curvature and laminate design, whereas a 404 transmits about 11% less vibration to the hub than a box section aluminum rim, the 808 transmits about 7% less vibration than a 404. Surprisingly this is the thing noticed most by customers after they notice the aero advantage of the wheel. I think with the 404 that most people write the comfort off as being related to tubular tires, or have themselves convinced that all deep rims ride harshly, but the 808 seems to have crossed that line, and most everybody I’ve talked to who has ridden them mentions the comfort (which is about time as we’ve spent untold money and 4 years on our VCLC damping technology to get the wheels to this point). Lastly, some people will benefit from having a larger surface area wheel in the rear due to improved steering torque component. If you are smaller or nervous on the bike, you may be better off with a 606 as the aerodynamic pressure bias is rearward, whereas larger or more experienced bike handlers will be fine with the 808. Likewise, adding a disc to the 808 front (same as the 999 wheelset) will have the same effect allowing smaller riders to more comfortably utilize the faster 808 front wheels.
The weight really is not an issue so I won’t discuss it, you see less than 100 grams increase from 404 to 606 and another 100 grams from 606 to 808, and for triathlon usage, that is significantly less important that the aero performance so don’t let those numbers affect your decision.
I hope this helps with your decision, and doesn’t just further confuse the issue.
Regards
Josh
Thank you, and for this reason, I will buy a brand new pair of Zipps this weekend.
This forum is the greatest place in cyberspace.
One more question if you have the time. I am almost equally a roadie as a triathlete. Is there any benefit of one to the other in terms of crossover capabilities?
Being a larger rider and a good handler, the front end should not be too much of a problem, except for in a tigt pack, I would think.
Josh – timely post, as I am looking for a new front wheel. I’m shopping for a clincher wheel. It is basically down to 404 or 808. I am leaning toward 404 simply because I can always pick up a virtually new one on Ebay at half of the 808 price. But, there are other considerations…
Two questions: What is Zipp’s opinion about time savings between these two clincher front wheels (paired with a disc*)? What size clincher tire do you recommend (I run Michelin Pro Race – their “21” is more like most 22s; their “23” is like a 24).
I have no worries about handling, and I assume the higher profile of the 808 gives it a clear speed advantage in moderate cross winds (correct?).
*I’m running a Powertap/Mavic rear with a CH Aero cover on it.
Thanks!
Rick in San Diego
Triyoshoes: There is no issue in crossing over into road with either of these wheels, other than the slight weight penalties, which for anything other than a hillclimb TT or racing in the mtns. is a non-issue for most athletes. The only other issue I could think of is what Jens Voigt told me at training campt this year about ‘showing your hand’. His only worry was that if he shows up for stage 2 of the tour on his R2.5 with 404’s and then shows up for stage 3 on a Soloist with 808’s that his intentions will be all too clear and he’ll have ‘shown his hand’. This is the one aspect of road that you just don’t have in Tri, but at any level other than the protour I think that signaling your intentions to kick everybody’s a$$ is no big deal. Personally, I put 808’s on my bike 7 months ago and flat refuse to take them off. I was then on a 606 for about 2 weeks when I lent he front 808 wheel to a friend, but other than that it’s been 808’s all the way.
Ashburn: The clincher shape is totally different than the tuby shape and is optimised for clincher tires up to 23mm wide, so your Michelin’s will be perfect. As for the handling effect, there will be little noticeable difference between 808 and 404 front wheel if you are using a disc, so I wouldn’t worry about it. As far as drag and force in a crosswind, check out this technical white paper, you can see how the 808 performs relative to the 404 and see that it is superior to all but a disc in a moderate crosswind: http://www.zipp.com/tech/documents/ANoteonRimWidth_002.pdf
Thanks for your interest in our wheels.
Regards
Josh
If, for some reason, you had a lot of money, it seems to me that you should get both the 606 and the 999. Then, using different combinations, you have FOUR different Zipp wheelsets: 606, 808, 909, and 999. Now you’ve got great wheels for any conditions in a road race or a tri, including a great set of tri wheels (808) for when you don’t want to use a disc (I don’t know why that would be unless you are in Kona). By the way, does anybody know why discs are not allowed in Kona? I can’t think that the wind is that much more than in some other races around the world that WTC organizes.
-Colin
I could be a great double bluff if you want one of your riders to be heaverly marked so another could get away. Or maybe CSC could to the trick they used at the tour last year (but in reverse) when the rider swapped from a 404 clad Soloist to a 202 clad R2.5 for the cobbles.
josh, I have been looking at the 808s, thanks for the input. I am a Clydesdale (6-4,215) and I know you do a Clydesdale in the 404s. Do you think I could ride the 808s or do you think it would be too hard on the wheels?
Wahoo: The clydesdale wheels are essentially identical to standard wheels except for an increased spoke count for higher lateral stiffness. Generally this is more of an issue for roadies than triathletes which is why we say that the standard wheels are for roadies up to 200 lbs and triathletes up to 225 lbs. We have not done a clydesdale 808 yet as the increased rim depth of the 808 makes it quite a bit stiffer than the standard 404 and nearly equal in lateral stiffness to the clydesdale 404 (and nobody has EVER complained about lack of stiffness with those) so unless you were over 300lbs, you should be fine on the std 808’s.
CCF has really hit the nail on the head, this concept was originally thought of by Lance at Temple Cycles www.fasterisbetter.com for creating his ultra high-end triathlon machines, many of which are sold with both an 808 and 909 pair so that the owner can mix and match to create a 606, 808, 909, or 999 wheelset as needed. Of course the cost of all that is another story altogether, but we like to think of it as getting 4 wheelsets for the price of 2, so it’s really a very good deal (if you can possibly sell that to your wife 
josh
Thanks Josh, I figured the 808s could handle a little more. But hearing it from someone in the shop is very nice. I will go ahead and lose another five pounds (I needed the incentive) and call my LBS>
Josh, just got my 808 front. Wow. Nice. Haven’t been on the road with it, yet, but it sure is smooth and true. I don’t know why I didn’t realize it before, but, it has 18 spokes! Makes sense!
Hey Josh, thanks for your answers. You guys don’t have any sort of deal going, do you? You know, maybe 25% off wheelsets for people who mention slowtwitch when ordering? We DO give you guys a lot of good feedback…
-Colin
CCF - Kona is VERY windy/gusty across the lava fields on the Queen K highway. Many of the pro women (Lisa Bentley comes to mind) doesn’t even run a 404 on the front! She uses a Zipp 404 rear and 303 front she is so afraid of the wind (and she has did about what, 15 ironman races or so?)
Sure, I totally understand that. But I wonder why discs are specifically not allowed in Kona. It would make more sense if they were allowed but nobody used them, because of the wind. I have heard that Lanzarote is far windier than Kona, and discs are allowed there, but people don’t use them. See what I mean?
-Colin
Sure, I totally understand that. But I wonder why discs are specifically not allowed in Kona. It would make more sense if they were allowed but nobody used them, because of the wind. I have heard that Lanzarote is far windier than Kona, and discs are allowed there, but people don’t use them. See what I mean?
-Colin
It is too windy for a disk…I have seen riders blown off of the road using very shallow wheels…it can get so windy that you cannot ride in the aero position…a little scary…
You’ve passed on some great info in this thread - very much appreciated!
I currently ride a ‘borrowed’ set of Reynolds DV’s and need to give them back soon, so I’m in the market for a great set of wheels, and obviously Zipps are top on the list. I really like the Reynolds and they’re up there on the list too.
I’ve read and heard the Zipps start breaking down after a few thousand miles, and they tend to be fragile and break easy - hence why some people only ride them for races? I really like to ride my gear all the time (just too much fun not to) and worry about the life of the wheelset if I do that? I’m a standard upper MOP racer at 6’, 165-170lbs so I don’t really consider myself a clydes. I also live in Texas so our roads may be bad, but certainly not like winter weathered roads. I think the 404, or 606 set would fit me best.
I know there are risks in any purchase, and proper care and maintenance is mandatory - I guess I’m just looking for some reassurance on the life and reliability of the wheels before commiting. Any insight you can give is appreciated.