3:30-3:45 IM Run split ... How?

Jon_D · July 5, 2007, 9:45pm

ok, I can do the simple math – maintain 8 min/mi pace with no more than 15 mins in the aid stations – I got that part.

And that was my plan @ CdA, but I fell short by ~ 20 mins. My actual run pace was good but I had to stop at every aid station for fuel. I’d estimate I spent 25 minutes in aid stations. I was extremely tired and hungry the entire run. I ate plenty on the bike (or at least I thought I did - I followed my nutrition plan to a T). Run course and temps were ideal for a good run. No significant issues the entire day - just extreme fatigue and hunger by mile 10 of the run. I know it’s an IM and everyone around me was feeling the same, but I thought I was better prepared to run faster and stop less. I found myself lingering in the aid stations on the 2nd loop. So, a few questions for folks that are running 3:40 …

– how often are you taking nutrition/water in the aid stations? every mile? every other mile? every 3rd mile?

– are you taking walk breaks in the aid stations?

– what pace are you keeping b/w aid stations?

– what’s your strategy in the last hour of the bike to set up a solid run?

– how many cals are you ingesting on the bike?

– in training, what’s your long brick? how does your run pace on a brick compare to your IM run pace?

Lot’s of questions – I want to break the code on this run. Eager to hear your feedback.

KJ · July 5, 2007, 9:55pm

I’ve run a 3:30, and drank every aid station…I’d alternate water at one, gatorade at the next. Sometimes, I’d take cola. I also focused on only walking while drinking/eating. It’s tough, as you’re tired. I’ve seen quite a few athletes walking for 100 yds or so after the aid station. That time adds up pretty quickly.

I kept a pretty consistent pace, and each of the 2 loop run splits was within 5 mins of each other. So, I slowed down a bit on the second loop, but not tremendously.

I use a powermeter, and tried to stay disciplined and within what I felt was comfortable…about 190 watts. I actually felt pretty strong towards the end of the bike, by staying disciplined during the early portions of the bike, when EVERYONE is feeling good. I’m amazed at how many people I’m passing at the end of the bike. AND, I’m not going faster, they’re just slowing down. Well, that’s NOT a good way to get ready for the marathon. Pacing on the bike is key. If you fry yourself on the bike, you’re screwed on the run.

I’m pretty conservative with the bike, but have always had pretty good runs…

Rockhopper1 · July 5, 2007, 10:00pm

– how often are you taking nutrition/water in the aid stations? every mile? every other mile? every 3rd mile?
every mile for me, alt between water and gatorade, coke when i really need to, last 10 miles

– are you taking walk breaks in the aid stations?
nope

– what pace are you keeping b/w aid stations?
about 7.40

– what’s your strategy in the last hour of the bike to set up a solid run?
take a gu every 30 minutes w/water, gatorade 15 between that

– how many cals are you ingesting on the bike?
~1500-1700

– in training, what’s your long brick? how does your run pace on a brick compare to your IM run pace?
6.5 hours or so, with run being no longer than 45 minutes, normally

Learn to eat on the run and you’ll save 25 minutes.

Good luck

Rockhopper1 · July 5, 2007, 10:02pm

Last two IMs I’ve ran ~3.20
.

sentania · July 5, 2007, 10:12pm

3:28 and 3:27 (IMWI 06 and IMAZ 07)

– how often are you taking nutrition/water in the aid stations? every mile? every other mile? every 3rd mile?
Water and coke at every aid station from the start , gel at 2 out of every 3; 2 or 3 salt tabs at 1 out of every 3 aid stations. Maybe some gatorade or chicken broth once and a while. After mile 20 or so it’s whatever appeals to me. I tend to front load my nutrition while I’m able to handle the sugary taste

– are you taking walk breaks in the aid stations?
No - for me once I walk I’m done.

**-- what pace are you keeping b/w aid stations? **
I couldn’t tell you to be honest - at fast as I can go.

**-- what’s your strategy in the last hour of the bike to set up a solid run? **
Maintain nutrition, back off last 2-3 miles (going from 20 mph to 15 mph over 3 miles will only add 3 minutes to your time, but freshens you up)

– how many cals are you ingesting on the bike?
Clif bar and gell every hour plus 1 bottle of gatorade/ hour; 2 or 3 hammer salt tabs every 20 minutes

**-- in training, what’s your long brick? how does your run pace on a brick compare to your IM run pace? **
6 miles off my long bike; every week, 8 miles the last couple of weeks. 90% of my total run volume is ±15 sec per mile of my target IM pace.

skeeter · July 5, 2007, 10:12pm

I would be curious to see what kind of training you did for the 12 weeks leading up to the race. There are so many variables and the most important one could be that you were simply tired, maybe not though.

How many long runs did you do? How many miles a week did you run and ride? How many long rides? How much swimming? If you don’t swim enough you might already be tired coming out of T1, etc…

I have run 3:34 and 3:38 and never ran more than an hour off the bike, lots of centuries, lots of 2:30 runs, lots of 4-5k swim sessions, nothing special, nothing really fast, just lots of consistent training. That’s the key I think.

Also, for reference, I did ride a hard long ride prior to IMCDA '06 and held a 5:12 pace for 110 miles, but rode a 5:27 on race day, then ran the 3:38, which was still a bitch… Maybe that tells you something, again, maybe not.

I do agree with what Gordo said once, your bike fitness is like a nuclear weapon, which, of course, is never used… If you train to ride a 5:00 bike split, well, I wouldn’t recommend riding that come race day, back off and ride a 5:10 or 5:15 so you can run a respectable time.

Good luck!

A527G · July 5, 2007, 10:29pm

Bottom line = pacing on the bike…saving enough legs to RUN a solid 26.2.

cramer · July 5, 2007, 10:44pm

Just ran a 3:36:55 at Cd’A 2007. My protocol this year was more or less a max steady state approach, essentially running as hard as I can in each session without compromising my ability to get out the door the next day. I tried to include strides in 1-2 shorter runs every week, and I ran every long run in hilly terrain (to increase durability). My training paces averaged about 7:40/mile for the six months prior to race day (so about 35" faster than actual IM pace). I never ran longer than 45’ off of the bike in training, and those were done only as part of race rehearsal rides.

– how often are you taking nutrition/water in the aid stations? every mile? every other mile? every 3rd mile?
Every mile, alternating coke/water and gatorade/water. I started to get slightly tunnel-visioned and feel a creeping numbness in my arms and shoulders around mile 20-21, so I started grabbing 2-3 cups of the stuff with calories.

– are you taking walk breaks in the aid stations?
Yes, for the entire run, I run to the back of the aid station (the 2nd water/g’ade table), then walk for 10-15" while I drink. Then back to business.

– what pace are you keeping b/w aid stations?
Don’t know, as fast as I’m able while managing increasing fatigue, etc.

– what’s your strategy in the last hour of the bike to set up a solid run?
Throughout the bike, I tried to follow a strict plan of wattage “gears” for terrain components (per Rich Strauss). The power meter was an invaluable tool for keeping myself from overcooking it in the hills. The last half-hour back to town and T2 were slightly lower than target watts, as I was keeping pace with those around me into the headwind, so I saw no benefit to hammering for an extra minute or so off of my split. I shut it completely down with about 2 miles to go, got out of the saddle and stretched, and just kind of spun to get myself loosened up and mentally prepared to run the marathon.

– how many cals are you ingesting on the bike?
about 275/hour (around 1500 or so overall), 4 bottles of gatorade and 2 gels per lap.

– in training, what’s your long brick? how does your run pace on a brick compare to your IM run pace?
I don’t do any long bricks as part of regular training outside of race rehearsals, where it’s always the 112 bike followed by a 6-mile run. Those RR runs ended up being at around a 7:20 pace. When I do formal brick workouts in training, they’re typically shorter and a bit higher intensity, with the run pace closer to 7:00/mile.

Hope that helps!

cramer

eganski · July 5, 2007, 11:42pm

I went from 3:47 at IMLP '06 to a 3:29 at IMCdA '07, so i’ll answer your questions.

– how often are you taking nutrition/water in the aid stations? every mile? every other mile? every 3rd mile? I usually drank coke/water at the aid stations, i’d had enough of the Gatorade.

– are you taking walk breaks in the aid stations? No. I’m not fast enough or mentally tough enough to walk aid stations then run fast enough to average 8:00 miles.

– what pace are you keeping b/w aid stations? Same pace the whole way. Start slow (biggest mistake you can make is starting too fast. Run the marathon the way you do your 3hr runs, start slow and steady).

– what’s your strategy in the last hour of the bike to set up a solid run? My strategy for the bike was to go hard the whole way. I stopped with the Gatorade and just ate nanners and drank water. But pacing never changed.

– how many cals are you ingesting on the bike? I try to eat a gel every 20 minutes, and at every aid station, as well as finish as much of a bottle of Endurace between aid stations.

– in training, what’s your long brick? how does your run pace on a brick compare to your IM run pace? My long brick was 6/2. My run pace was the same…slooooow and steady.

Lot’s of questions – I want to break the code on this run. Eager to hear your feedback.

The key to running fast is patience. Not just during the race, but it takes years to build up the necessary bike fitness required to run average (what I consider 3:29 to be). I felt that if I could just replicate my long run of 3 hours during the race, it would just be a mental battle to get to the finish line. I suffered, badly, at mile 16. I thought about walking the aid stations, so I started grabbing cookies and pretzels with water. That got me through to the end.

Jon_D · July 6, 2007, 5:48pm

thanks to all for the feedback. very helpful. back to lab …

devashish_paul · July 6, 2007, 6:22pm

I would be curious to see what kind of training you did for the 12 weeks leading up to the race. There are so many variables and the most important one could be that you were simply tired, maybe not though.

I don’t agree that it is what you did in the 12 weeks leading up to the race. First of all, you can blow everything in the last 2 weeks…but aside from that, it is what you did in the last year to 5 years that matters. My last three were 3:42, 3:42, 3;43…nothing to write home about, but reasonably steady. In all these races, I was pretty well running all the time at 8 min per mile pace, aside for a ~4-5 miles somewhere along the way when I creeped up beyond 10 min per mile due to a low spot. I’m trying to find the secret to avoid those 10 min miles to get below the 3:30 barrier, but all I can say is NEVER WALK…walking is 20 min per mile…the slowest shuffle is 10 min per mile…even at 8 min per mile you can get more than enough nutrition in at those 100m long aid station buffets.

In general, when people run 4+ hours when they hoped to run sub 3:30, the answer is pretty simple:
Not enough swim mileage in training (yes swimming…60 min swim takes a lot out of you…no miracle that strong swimmers do relatively well at Ironman) Not enough bike miles and specifically bike miles at Ironman race pace Poor swim-bike pacing Too much nutrition combined with too high an intensity (stomach shuts down)
Most people who can swim 60 min and bike 5:30 - 5:50 in a relatively flat Ironman should be able to shuffle out a 3:30…funny thing is less than 5% of us actually do :-).

Final point…if you aren’t running 3:10 in a fresh marathon, 3:30 after 6.5-7 hours of exercise is going to be a stretch…no amount of swim and bike fitness is going to convert a 3:30 fresh marathoner into a 3:30 IM marathoner

Dev

c.dan.run · July 6, 2007, 6:50pm

QUOTE: “First of all, you can blow everything in the last 2 weeks…but aside from that, it is what you did in the last year to 5 years that matters.”

To echo your point: Running a lot over a year or two or five is what allows people to, frankly, destroy themselves on the bike and run 3:30.

"Most people who can swim 60 min and bike 5:30 - 5:50 in a relatively flat Ironman should be able to shuffle out a 3:30…funny thing is less than 5% of us actually do :-). "

No argument here.

"but all I can say is NEVER WALK… "

There are two kinds of people, those that can walk and those that can’t. I don’t think you can change from one of the former to one of the latter. I’m one of the latter–I can stop, walk, drink, cool myself off and then get on with whatever I need to do. But I don’t stop at every station, that’s for sure.

And at LP I should have walked at more…I wouldn’t have bonked and I wouldn’t have watched my Kona slots running up the road from miles 19 to 25.

Final point…if you aren’t running 3:10 in a fresh marathon, 3:30 after 6.5-7 hours of exercise is going to be a stretch…

That’s the takeaway here…You have to have something to slow down from.

And Eganski illuded to this: running a 3:30 IM after getting hammered on the bike by the fast guys bikers is not a fantastic strategy either.

Rockhopper1 · July 6, 2007, 6:55pm

“but all I can say is NEVER WALK”

That could not be more true. Walking at races can become an addiction, a way to rid of the pain. Don’t walk. When I races Steelhead last year I started walking at mile 3 or 4. It continued the rest of the run at aid stations. I looked forward to it, to the break. You have to be able to block the misery out and continue shuffling you feet. Ironman run is not really a run, light jog no big deal. The faster you get done the quicker you’ll be able to sit. That is way better than walking.

Forsler · July 6, 2007, 7:03pm

GoFast

Excellent topic! As a 4:05 IMC marathoner I am very interested in the answers that the faster guys have given. I am sure there are other fast guys out there and I hope they post a reply as well.

cramer · July 6, 2007, 7:48pm

“but all I can say is NEVER WALK”

That could not be more true. Walking at races can become an addiction, a way to rid of the pain. Don’t walk. When I races Steelhead last year I started walking at mile 3 or 4. It continued the rest of the run at aid stations. I looked forward to it, to the break. You have to be able to block the misery out and continue shuffling you feet. Ironman run is not really a run, light jog no big deal. The faster you get done the quicker you’ll be able to sit. That is way better than walking.

I have to disagree with this one, with the caveat that I am one of those fortunate enough to be able to take brief walk breaks at aid stations to take a brief respite and get some calories/fluids in. During my training runs, I almost never take walk breaks (just the stoplight stand-downs, etc.), but in an Ironman, I commit to 15-20" at every aid station. I feel I’m able to hold pace and stave off the severe distress in the quads and calves much better with these brief breaks.

Plus, there’s absolutely no reason why you can’t put down a fast IM run split and still take substantial walk breaks. Just do the math. If you take 30" every mile and run 7:30 pace in between, that’s a 3:25 marathon, which would have been a top 50 run split at IM Cd’A this year. To go sub-3:20, you simply need to take the run pace down to 7:15, and keep the walk breaks.

In my opinion, the IM run is much more about effort management than being fast or strong. Attaching an arbitrary goal or rule, such as “You must run every step!”, simply increases the risk level. Sure, you may be able to hold off the bonk or fight through the dead or painful legs, but in my opinion, you’ve gambled a bit and gotten lucky. If your goal is to qualify/win your AG/place in the money as a pro/etc. or blow up trying, then I think that’s when you consider pushing the envelope on the run, and cut out as much walking as you can.

Dev, it may be an interesting experiment for you to try. Walking 10-15" at every aid station would save you more time in the long run if it allows you to hold pace and avoid going 10+ min/mile for 4-5 miles during a low point (that’s 8-10 minutes right there, versus the 4:00-6:30 of total walking). Just a thought …

cramer

Rockhopper1 · July 6, 2007, 8:01pm

I agree that there have been some great IM runs using the run/walk technique. It is however one thing to go into the race and plan to do that one entirely another thing walking because you got tired. If you don’t plan on walking just don’t walk unless it is to prevent injury. If you are running a 3.30 marathon, I assume that you are pretty competitive in your AG and walking, at least in my mind, would be sort of giving up and not at least trying to be competitive.

It is not all that easy to start running 7.15 if you just want to. If it was we would all be going it and still ot walking the aid stations. But like I said, if you train to walk then walk. If you don’t train to walk then don’t.

slick · July 6, 2007, 8:07pm

First of all train how you want to race or better yet faster than you want to race, a lot faster. If you want to do your IM run sub 8min/mile you better be doing your long training runs at sub 7min/mile and shorter runs even faster.

Next 40-50 miles per week for many weeks for many years.

Next. Never walk no matter what. Ever. Time evaporates into thin air when you walk. Why eat? Just learn to drink Coke on the run and you are set.

The only time I didn’t break these rules I went 3:27 at IMMOO in 05 on a very hot day. Although I’ve been close several other times I never broke 3:30 because I violated one or more of my rules above either racing or training.

BTW I always go hard on the bike. Give away too much time if you don’t.

cramer · July 6, 2007, 8:26pm

First of all train how you want to race or better yet faster than you want to race, a lot faster. If you want to do your IM run sub 8min/mile you better be doing your long training runs at sub 7min/mile and shorter runs even faster.

Next 40-50 miles per week for many weeks for many years.

Next. Never walk no matter what. Ever. Time evaporates into thin air when you walk. Why eat? Just learn to drink Coke on the run and you are set.

The only time I didn’t break these rules I went 3:27 at IMMOO in 05 on a very hot day. Although I’ve been close several other times I never broke 3:30 because I violated one or more of my rules above either racing or training.

BTW I always go hard on the bike. Give away too much time if you don’t.

Just to offer the alternative viewpoint, yet again. I ran 3:36:55 at IM Cd’A – 8:16/mile pace, WITH 10-20" of walking at every aid station. My training paces ranged primarily from 7:30’s (shorter runs) to 7:50’s (long runs). I’m not particularly fast (never gone sub-39 for 10K or sub-19 for 5K, and my half-mary PB is 1:28:33). I had exactly one 40+ mile week of running in the past year, and only about half a dozen 30+ mile weeks. LOTS of 20+ mile weeks.

I will agree that you should formulate a plan and stick to it, whether it calls for walking or not. If you wind up walking when you didn’t plan to, then my first point of investigation would be pacing, either on the bike or in the earlier stages of the run. Typically, for the targets we’re discussing here, we’ve all got enough fitness to finish the event solidly, and it boils down to either appropriate planning (correct target paces, efforts, etc.) or conscientious execution (sticking to the plan).

To me, my only focus is getting to the last 10K of the run, and from there I give it everything I’ve got left. At any point during the race up that 20-mile marker, my strategy is simply one of managing the effort, fueling myself, and moving forward.