2009 Shimano 7900 Dura Ace...Will it be?

Triathlon Forum
1

There’s a small hint that there will be a new groupset for Shimano in the top paragraph.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/jan08/tdu08/?id=features/tech

Based my experience in watching Shimano over the years, I expect alot of the technology incorporated in the XTR 970 to carry over to the road in the same way it carried over from the M760 to the 7800 (like the integrated cranks). I don’t think electronic is anywhere near coming out, and I personally don’t see a huge reason for it right now.

I suspect that while the carbon cranks will remain an upgrade option for the new Dura Ace, I think that there will be the standard DurAluminum ones with carbon fiber rings w/titanium teeth like the M760 crankset. Along with that, there will most likely change the clamping mechanism from the two pinch bolts to a bolt on with an adjustable spacer (ala M760 crankset again).

I’m going to assume that they will do away with the external shift cables as mentioned in the article, and I don’t think that they will be jumping to 11 gears because 10 is loud enough for right now.

I bet the rear derailleurs will see some carbon pulley cages and wider pivots. Not sure if anything can be done to the front to improve it.

As for the brakes, no idea, but maybe they might take them look more skeleton to drop weight, or they might keep them the same to keep that solid braking feel that they are known for.

While I don’t think the Bar Cons will ever change because of their simplicity, I do think it would be kind of interesting if they paired them up with a low-normal derailleur for the exact same reasons why Shimano says it’s better for Mtn Biking.

Anyone else have any other opinions/ideas on what Shimano is going to eventually unveil on us?

2

It’s about time Shimano is doing away with the external shifter cables. So many have jumped ship to SRAM/Campy just for the fact that they have internal shifter cables at the bar. Now I’ll wait instead of converting to SRAM. SRAM is great stuff but too overpriced in my opinion.

3

then what are you going to hold onto when you go aero while pulling at the front? :wink:

4

I don’t know how much of that is because of technology design or because of patent laws. I was told once that because the way Campagnolo orientates their shift mechanism with their thumb paddle, it allows them to run the shift cable parallel to the brake. The Shimano has to be orientated different because of the patent laws, so therefore has to run the second lever and a shift cable perpendicular to the brake. (Kind of the same reason SRAM had to use a “double tap” as opposed to two different levers - it’s all about patents)

I’m not sure if that’s true or not and how things are changing in the shifters now as opposed to something that could have been done back in 2003.

5

Albush1, I disagree with you regarding the SRAM RED being too $$$y.
In Oz we sell the RED for approx $3200AUD
If you consider the following.
It’s a race-ready groupo and requires no upgrades like Ti Bolts, Carbon Cranks or Ceramic Bearings…
Stock standard with Ceramic BB and Jockey Wheels.
Where as if you compare to what I believe is it’s biggest rival, RECORD, it would cost you more for a Record kit upgraded to CERAMIC bearings than it will to buy SRAM RED in the first place. RECORD $2650AUD + $800AUD Campag Ceramic Upgrade.
As for Durarchy, which I’m still running on my bike since it’s inception 5years ago.
To buy Dura-Ace with and upgrade to their new carbon crank, costs you almost as much EXTRA for the upgrade as it does to purchase the entire groupset in the first place… $2000AUD + $1750AUD Carbon Crank.

Some other points that are taken for granted with the SRAM RED are the following benefits over over RECORD. BOTH Brake lever AND Double Tap shift lever are carbon. Whereas RECORD’s shift lever is plastic with a carbon decorative insert. BOTH Rear Derailleur cages, are Carbon, whereas the RECORD only has a carbon inner cage. SRAM RED is so far the only lever to offer a standard SHORT REACH lever adjustment, Which is particularly of interest to smaller riders and women, the campag ergo lever would have to be completely re-designed to do this. The Shimano can be shorted with an aftermarket rubber shim from the SPECIALIZED Body Geometry range.
I’ve been using Shimano Dura-Ace since I was racing J15 (14yo) and the 8Spd was first released with STI Levers. I went through the 9Spd Durarchy, and got 10Spd as soon as it was released. I’ve been a Bike Mech for 17years and work on many of the top Aussie Stars bikes. And in my opinion, Shimano has a LOT of work to do if they’re going to bring out something to comeback at Campy and SRAM this time. Not to mention the little things like the external cables Dura-Ace still have to catch up on.

I doubt if they can get anywhere near the weights offered by Campy or SRAM, and honestly I think they’d be foolish to try, especially with Shimano’s ‘HEAD-IN-THE-SAND’ views on Carbon as opposed to their ‘Cold Forging’, it’s wearing rather thin. The market desires carbon, and it seems to be doing a great job, pushing on with their ‘Cold Forging’ is futile, it’s good, no doubt, but people want carbon and why not, it works well. Look at the advancements in carbon frames now, a frame that’s stiff as a board but comfy as an armchair.

Instead I believe they should look more towards electronic technology, after all that’s what the ‘Japs’ are good at.
How about a groupo that offers a standard power output meter, combined with the benefits of the already existing Flightdeck? Add Altitude and HRM and your set. Even if the groupo sold for $4500 it would be respected as a top-end Pro’s groupset. And even for the weight penalty would be considered by many info hungry riders.
After all, what decent pro’s aren’t already running some form of Power Meter anyway? SRM, PowerTap etc…
And with the Primitive UCI Weight limit of 6.8kg most pro’s choose to race with the SRM cranks to bring the bike up to weight.

Anyway, that’s my two-bob worth.

Andrew Steele
Le Tour Cycles, Melbourne Australia.
Personal Mechanic for Trent Lowe - Slipstream
Personal Mechanic for Richard England - Team Bissell

6

It’s a race-ready groupo and requires no upgrades like Ti Bolts, Carbon Cranks or Ceramic Bearings…
Stock standard with Ceramic BB and Jockey Wheels.

Oh yeah, definitely no way you could race without all that stuff…

7

Carbon for the sake of carbon is stupid.

As a former owner of Mavic Zap…electronic shifting fixes the problem no one has. Oh, and it sucks when your battery dies, gets wet and or you cut an electrical wire.

8

What is the point of using carbon when SRAM and Campy use it?

I agree that electronic shifting is the solution to the problem that nobody has. That is the perfect way to describe it.

9

Just put the polish on Trent’s new frameset…it’ll be a bullet under him.

Regards,

-SD

10

Mmmmm Mavic Zap, yeah that was fun wasn’t it, the Mektronik never was much better either, sooooo slloooooowwww innnn theeee shiifffffttttiiiinnngg…
When I was at the Specialized Factory in Morgan Hill, San Jose in 2006, some of their engineers were test riding the electronic campy and it seemed to work fine. Dunno where thats gotten to though.

Yeah though I don’t think theres a need for electronic shifting it would fix the broken cable ends that have become common place since 10Spd Shimano was introduced, I dunno how many of those suckers I’ve spent hours trying to find the lost cable end inside the lever.

But since Shimano never completely ironed out the contact problems with their flightdeck I wonder how good their electronic shift might be.

I just built the first Felt Z1 for him (Trent Lowe). You guys shipped him a frame and fork so he could ride the Australian Road Champs. I love the Argyle. I’ve ordered some Argyle sox from him, although since he’s a Sz 41 and I’m a 46 I think he’ll need to pinch some from big Magnus…

Andrew Steele
Le Tour Cycles, Melbourne Australia.

11

Even with ceramic bearings, are you sure that SRAM Red has a lower friction drivetrain than Campy? I’d like to see that measured. Campy has no weak links in their group set. SRAM’s bottom bracket design has excessive friction in the non-ceramic versions. I think SRAM needs ceramic bits to compensate for their poorly designed bottom bracket.

12

Ceramic bearings are AWESOME! - oh, at 25,000rpm and 1000 degrees…or so my buddy at Sundstrand Aerospace tells me.

13

Great point! If you have a Campy drive train (speaking specifically about the new UT cranks/bb…but the older stuff is still super smooth too!), you don’t need ceramic bearings. Incredible right out of the box!

Not to mention the fact that putting ceramic bearings in a Campy BB voids the warranty…

But, back to the original topic… hopefully Shimano can step up their game with the 2009 group. Right now Campy (the best) and Sram (when built with a Shimano cassette & chain) are way ahead.

14

MarcK Said :

Hey don’t get me wrong I’m a massive Campag fan, and a Campy Qualified Pro Mecanic, but they are certainly not without their faults. Their levers constantly require (well at least for those of us that actually ride past the Cafe’) springs and ratchets. The old saying of ‘Your Campy will be wearing in as your Shimano is wearing out’ doesn’t quite ring true these days, the durability just isn’t there anymore. It’s great out of the box but clock up 20k a year and the levers will be pretty sloppy before the year is out. And to service the ergopower they must be removed from the bike meaning new tape almost always. The RED DoubleTap shifters are serviceable (unlike shimano) and can be done on the bike without needing to be removed and bar tape replaced.

Campy’s crank wins hands down, but if you check carefully that design was stolen from Specialized who brought it out in 2004. Hence why as part of the court settlement Specialized now use exactly the same designed spline as Campy improved slightly on it.
Campy Brakes are also the best around with a dual pivot front and single pivot rear they leave SRAM and Shimano for dead when it comes to panic/emergency braking, almost NEVER lock the rear wheel.

If Campy has no weak links then why is it 100+grams heavier than RED?
Also what about the cheap n’ Nasty plastic Shift levers that often break, admittedly mainly for people the don’t replace their cables regularly but still they’re not to strong.
What about reach adjustment for smaller hands? Impossible on Campy.
Campy’s cassette is also a weak point in my opinion, the Ti cogs lack the durability of steel compared to the all Steel one-piece RED cassette which is LIGHTER and more Durable than the Record.

Yes I agree SRAM don’t have the best crankset out there, it’s a vast improvement on all their previous Truvativ product and I’ve found the Red cranks to work fine. But like Dura-Ace they’re not without their faults. But since SRAM took over Truvativ they’ve made some serious progress, all the chainrings seem to even run true now! Which was rare for Truvativ before.

Anyway I guess my point is, that if you look closely I think you’ll find the RECORD and RED to be comparable and the current Dura-Ace to be left well behind, like seriously behind. It’s not in the same league, it’s more comparable to FORCE and CHORUS.

Shimano who used to be the innovators now can barely hold the wheel.
Bring on 2009 Dura-Ace I say! I love the competition…

Andrew Steele - Le Tour Cycles
Dura-Ace user since 8Spd STI
Campag Fan and Qualified Pro Mechanic
SRAM RED Fan of their innovations

15

Said : Ceramic bearings are AWESOME! - oh, at 25,000rpm and 1000 degrees…or so my buddy at Sundstrand Aerospace tells me.

I wholeheartedly agree but since theirs more W@nkers out there than real riders give them ceramic.

Zipp Claim that Ceramic Bearings are 1000 times rounder than steel. Well if something was 1000times rounder than a ball bearing it wouldn’t even be square, I dunno what it would be but it’d be seriously out of shape!
I fit plently of Ceramic bearings but I doubt if they’re any benefit and I’m sure they’re not as durable as the good Stainless Balls.

Andrew Steele

16

It’s a race-ready groupo and requires no upgrades like Ti Bolts, Carbon Cranks or Ceramic Bearings…
Stock standard with Ceramic BB and Jockey Wheels.

Oh yeah, definitely no way you could race without all that stuff…
Could not have said it better myself. It is almost laughable the insane marketing driven sense thaat cycling has been taken too in recent years bythe marketeers. These clowns would have you believe that unless you are riding a $7000 bike outfitted with deep dish carbon tubular wheels, ridiculously meaningless carbon outfitted drivetrains and frames that somehow by majic you will not be able to compete against other riders in races. Next we’ll have 11 speed come out and then all the BSartists will bellow on and on how 22 speeds is a must and anyone on a 10 speed bike can’t race. What ever happened to cycling being about the athlete and not about a bunch of shopping crazed type women looking to run to the store at every opportunity to buy the latest greatest piece of bicycle jewelry? The very fact the idiot you replied too tries to justify SRAM Red based upon the fact its rear derailleur has more carbon pieces in it and its shifters have carbon pieces (whoopdy dooo) pretty much serves as a perfect example of the sad current state of cycling which has become dominated by utter BS artists and marketeerrs trying to convince masses they need 14lb $7000 carbon laden bikes to compete in racing. I also loved his BS comment about the carbon frame thatwasultrastiff and as comfortable as a sofa or whatever? Here’s a little newsflash: if its ultra stiff it ain’t also ultra comfortable despite all the carbon fiber market BSclaims. LOL