I wish there were ITU ruled sprints/olys for AGers.
Wait, this sounds a lot like my current races, except #3. 
Seriously, I’d like to play with drafting legal a few times just so i could have
an informed opinion instead of a ST opinion.
-Jot
That was a great montage. I’ve been watching some of the old World Championship videos lately and they look awesome. I really think the drafting aspect makes it more pure… less rules. If you want to win, you have to be there when you get on the bike or hope you get in a group that is willing to work together. As another poster mentioned, it looks too tight to have non-drafting rules.
ITU certainly puts out better video’s. Not sure that in person, they are that much different.
much better to watch in person. i was at new plymouth the year docherty outsprinted gemmel. was an amazing race to watch. was also at lausanne when hamish carter got 2nd. another great race.
tridork…itu guys are more proficient in the 3 sports than im specialists imo. terenzo seems to do pretty well on the bike in non drafting races, yet has been dropped from the bunch in itu races…what does that tell you?
I did ITU Age Group world’s when it was non drafting (by the way, won wire to wire Spencer Smith and Emma Carney) and lived through the entire transition to draft legal (as a fan).
Personally I had no issue if Les wanted to eliminate the hassle of drafting calls prior to getting into the Olympics, but for an exciting race, it should have then been 1.5/10/40…since we were changing the “sport completely” put the bike race at the end and you will always have a breakaway group of skinny runners trying to keep the peleton of riders away…and then in the final 500m if the skinny guys keep the peleton away , then they attack each other…great for TV.
I’m not commenting on the quality of ITU athlete…they are amazing…just saying that ITU racing is a sport not practiced by age groupers and this is why there is not as much interest in Ironman…this might be slightly different in NZ and Aus where ITU athletes have a higher profile, but in North America they may as well not exist. Thankfully in Canada, Simon W has won 2 Olympic medals…enough to keep the media somewhat engaged…and Sweetland’s World Cup win actually made most newspapers and was mentioned on the mainstream news.
Dev
By the way…that 1991 sprint finish between Miles Stewart, Mike Pigg and Rick Wells is fresh in my mind like yesterday…those in Kiwiland…what is Rick Wells up to?
it should have then been 1.5/10/40…since we were changing the “sport completely” put the bike race at the end and you will always have a breakaway group of skinny runners trying to keep the peleton of riders away…and then in the final 500m if the skinny guys keep the peleton away , then they attack each other…great for TV.
Dev
Dev has the first constructive comment here. What I want to hear from you TriDork, is your answer to the question of what happens on a 40k bike course when 50 athletes all start the ride within the space of one minute. What’s your plan B for avoiding drafting?
I live in New Jersey and I love hockey. The Broadway Blues are my team not the Devils. All you hear on the radio around here is how hockey is not that popular. The tv ratings are down and the Devils don’t sellout every game like the Rangers do. Well, i really don’t care how many people like hockey. I like it and my friends do and we talk hockey all the time. I don’t care if it’s popular with the general public or not. As long as it’s on tv for me to watch I don’t care who else watches it. I know if nobody watched but me it would be gone but you get my point.
I fell the same way about triathlon.
Yeah, I loved seeing that finish again. I probably still have it somewhere on VHS cassette.
I was surprised that they started with 90 and did not show the inaugural world champs in France in 89. They probably did not have any video feed of that.
TD,
I know that for a long time you have been anti-ITU and anti- Les. I will admit to you that Les is one of those polarizing people and personalities - people either love him or loath him. Having known him personally and been around him, back in those days a few times, I will fully admit that, that is the case.
What he did is still very controversial, but personally, I think it was a very positive thing for the sport as a whole - and I think that’s what people need to do. They need to step away from their on little world and view-point, and start to look at the big picture. The world wide popularity and growth that triathlon has been experiencing of late is in part, due to the fact that the sport is getting significant exposure through the ITU World Cup circut and in particular the Olympic Games. Yes, in the U.S. - they don’t seem to care. However, in Canada, the Olympic Triathlon races have been the most watched events on TV of any Olympic event - with millions of viewers. It is similar in other countries that follow triathlon - again the U.S. being an exception.
There are many who feel that Les has wrecked the sport, and over the short term, I can see how they have that view, but change is always hard and challenging. I think that years from now, people will have a better and fuller understanding of what Les did, and how he put the sport on the road to world wide popularity.
but for an exciting race, it should have then been 1.5/10/40…since we were changing the “sport completely” put the bike race at the end and you will always have a breakaway group of skinny runners trying to keep the peleton of riders away…and then in the final 500m if the skinny guys keep the peleton away , then they attack each other
Hot damn… that is an awesome idea.
** Dev has the first constructive comment here. What I want to hear from you TriDork, is your answer to the question of what happens on a 40k bike course when 50 athletes all start the ride within the space of one minute. What’s your plan B for avoiding drafting?**
People like TD and the vehement anti ITU types were perhaps not around in the early 90’s and witnessed the fiasco that the races had become. Your point is well taken - what exactly are they to do when 100 or so athletes all exit the water withing 20 - 30 seconds, as was the case at World Cups and World Championships back then? I guess they thought that they would all get in a nice little single file line with 6 - 7 meters between each of them and stay that way for the whole bike leg - good luck.
The facts are that numerous solutions were tried. World Cup races were turning into a bit of a Joke - an hour or more after the finish of the race with all the DQ’s, appeals and arguing they still did not know who had won the race. Reporters were waiting to file stories. The TV guys were now worried that they may not have video coverage of the “winner”. Fans on site were still in the dark as to had won. So in a way the ITU solution was brilliant - swim/bike/run however you want, and the first across the line wins! It’s simple. It’s straight-forward. You don’t need 20 marshalls out on the bike course. The winner is the winner. The race and the competition decides that, not the rule book. Yes it’s different. Yes the race dynamics are different. Now the swim *really mattered - *a point often over-looked in all of this. The bike was now about having overall great cycling fitness and skill - not just being a great time-trialer, which is very one dimensional. And the run was as important as it had ever been, if for no other reason than it was last!
The run has always been crucial in triathlon - regardless of the format or the length. Almost every major triathlon of note with a deep and competitive world class field has been settled on the run. Yes, there have been exceptions to this - but they are rare and unusual events.
“To me, ITU racing doesn’t even count as triathlon.”
I’ve heard a lot of comments like that over the years and I completely disagree. I like the ITU format. It’s exciting to watch and those athletes are very fast. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
“To me, ITU racing doesn’t even count as triathlon.”
I’ve heard a lot of comments like that over the years and I completely disagree.
Robert,
I have never understood this stance either. In fact I think the contrary - the ITU format is truly a Triathlon. Why?
The swim really matters.
The bike is perhaps of slightly less importantance on one front, but now you need to be an all-around *cyclist. *The bike in the ITU format tests all of your skill and fitness as a cyclist - not just your ability to put your head down and hammer - which is very one dimensional. People think that’s cycling - when it’s TT’ing, which in a sense is what you are doing in most other triathlons is a sub-discipline of cycling.
Finally - people go on and on how now it’s all about the run. What they fail to realize if you look at all triathlons, in all formats over all the years, is that it’s always been a bit more about the run if for no other reason than it’s last. In a highly competitive race with a deep field, the run is what is going to settle things. Sorry, but if you want to change that up, then you need to be lobbying to change the order of the events. Put the cycling last and I am sure you would see much different racing with a different out-come.
Fleck…agreed about all the appeals and DQs etc. Something had to be done…but I think the format chosen was not the most exciting…50 guys come out of the water together, 50 guys come off the bike together and then we start a 10K road race.
I’m not for a moment implying that the athletes are not superlative…they are.
But as a fan the format sucks. There is no drama and no excitement till the run. May as well tune in for the Olympic 10,000m final…Actually may as well tune in for the Olympic 800 m final cause that’s what it ends being…50 guys off the bike together, 9 K of attrition then a select group of 2-5 battling for gold. The last part is damn exciting, the but the first 50K or so of racing is largely a non event from a viewership perspective.
If you flip it to 1.5-10-40, every race will have drama and excitement. You can bet 150% on that. The 10K run will of course be meaningful cause it sets up the spread on the bike “breakaway” and it makes all legs very meaningful and exciting from a viewership perspective…yeah and if there are some crashes in the sprint finish, that’s part of the drama as a fan…why the heck do you think Formula1, Nascar and the gallop into San Remo not to mention the first week of Tour De France are so engaging for viewers?
Seriously, I’d rather watch Nascar than ITU and to be fair, I’d rather watch NFL or MLB than watching paint dry during the annual IM telecast on NBC. Its amazing that this many people actually care about the Hawaii broadcast given how boring it actually is. Usually the Army Navy football game between two out of contention teams offers much more excitement.
1.5-10-40 and you have a winning show. This would have sold TV and still can…I think even my mother would tune into watch this (an Indian woman who can’t even ride a bike who tunes in for Tour de France coverage…go figure).
Dev
OK, let’s see an ITU World Cup “Alpe d’Huez”…Swim behind the dam at Vaujany, run 10K on the flats to Bourg D"oisans town centre, and from there climb to Les Deux Alps (finish where Pantani sealed the 1998 tour victory over Ullrich) and then back down to the base of Alpe d’Huez and finish with the legendary climb…now that would be a cool 1.5-10-40 
.
“…I know that for a long time you have been anti-ITU and anti- Les. I will admit to you that Les is one of those polarizing people and personalities - people either love him or loath him…”
Fleck who loves him? All his cronies in his power base and all the bureaucrats who are federation presidents from “third tier triathlon nations” who get to travel on their taxpayer coin and pad Les’ power structure? I’m not exactly unplugged from the behind the scenes triathlon paper pushers, but the only people that love him are the people whose power is enhanced by association with Les…by and large there are few athletes and people outside his power base who would tolerate him for even a moment over dinner.
I sat around with Les at the Milton triathlon in 1989 a few months before the first ITU World’s in Avignon…I’lll give the guy credit for vision, but like anything related to power, quite often rational thinking and objective decision making vanish in favour of growing one’s empire/power base.
So do you love him or not? You said there are 2 camps…which one do you fall in? While I will give him some credit for what he achieved with triathlon, I am also dissappointed how he polarized the sport between his camp and everyone else…count me in the other camp.
Dev
but I think the format chosen was not the most exciting…50 guys come out of the water together, 50 guys come off the bike together and then we start a 10K road race.
Dev,
As I said, it would be intriguing to change up the order and that’s what people should be lobbying for.
Part of the problem is that the race has three parts swim/bike/run and in any highly competitive world class endurance event, you’ll see the same three parts - start/middle/finale. Look at any 5,000m or 10,000m, marathon, running road race, nordic ski race, bike race etc . . . at the World Championship level. They start and everyone is together for the first third. Then it starts to get a bit interesting. There are some surges and tactical things going on in that middle third, but still a big chunk of the field is still right there, finally they reach the final third of the race and this is where the real seperation occurs. Serious attacks/surges are used. The weaker athletes quickly fall by the wayside and the field is winnowed down to the absolute favourites and the “best”. Then the game is really on and it’s a horse race to the finish line over the final 1/4 of the whole race. Triathlon suffers a bit because it is neatly divided into three seperate activities, and the run being last, is where the real speration happens and the pretenders are gone and the favourites come forward.
Put the run in the middle and the separation happens in the middle…it really is very easy. Your analysis is a bit flawed. If you put the run in the middle, guys who can’t sprint on the bike need to make a break to win. That is the only way. In this format, a guy like Spencer Smith can win just as easily as Simon Whitfield. In the current format, a guy like Spencer or Olivier Marceau are pretty well cooked. The only reason Marceau won at 2000 ITU World’s Perth is cause they were not exactly competent enough to measure the course properly and ended up with 8K…so his bike breakaway stuck…but barely.
The ITU wanted to take the sport to the Olympics, It wanted sponsorship, it wanted to be on TV. Draft free racing did not make for a product that could market well on TV. If it did then Kona would have full TV coverage as would the draft illegal races in the US.
To the best of my knowledge they don’t, ITU races are picked up and broadcast at least on Pay TV around the world. The formula has worked, WTC races are not marketable on TV outside of the tri community, even the jewel in the crown Kona does not warrant live and complete TV coverage in the US (although I think the Germans might cover it).
The approach of mixing up the order of the legs has been tried in the ITGP series which subsequently failed. In theory it sounds good but you alienate your tri community who like it traditional in terms of the order of the legs. The issue that people have with the bike leg of the ITU races is that they see it as boring without any attacks. The bigger issue with ITU races is that the swim becomes more important than it is in a WTC race. If you can’t swim with the top guys you are not in the top pack and those guys can all run, the poorer swimmer who is a good rider can’t catch the weaker cyclists who hang out in the bunch then hit the run hard.
In the alternate model, the strong swimmer and runners build an insurmountable lead on the uber bikers and ride in a pack and then we have a sprint finsish all the tour. Changing the order of the legs does not help the athelete who is off the pace in the swim and the run.
There is also the misconception that draft illegal racing (not sure if there is any) is more exciting, I guess its subjective, but consider the following scenario.
WTC allows pros to draft, Norman and Sindballe and some of the other uber cyclists agree to work together so they can hurt Macca and Alexander or bulild a lead and then run it out amongst themselves. I don’t know for sure what would happen but I think that the uber cyclists working as a unit could gap the runners by enough and as they had been sharing the load, run better.
Draft legal racing could provide a much better product and make for more interesting races, the problem is with the AG, I don’t think we want 2000 AG drafting from a safety point of view, having said that most of them do it now, so maybe it would not make a difference
I think it was Rasmus Henning that suggested the future of Olympic triathlon was to have two events: traditional race and then a time trial. Having the best in the world compete in a pure Olympic distance time trial would be fascinating. Has anyone out there done Memphis in May? I believe it’s a time trial, isn’t it? I’d be interested to know how the format affects the overall competitive element.