I am baffled by the stroke advice. I think there is something you are not understanding. High elbow means that, while your arm is submerged your elbow is ABOVE your hand if you are viewing from the side. The best analogy I know of is that it should feel like you are swimming over a wine barrel. A wine barrel is big, so you have to have your hand down below your elbow when you pull yourself over the barrel.
Bilateral breathing. Um no. Perhaps do a 2/2/2/1/2/2/2 breathing pattern. Do 3 breaths to the left, and breath to the right and then 3 to the right. The “1” indicate you are breathing on consecutive strokes. If you must, then do 2/2/2/3/2/2/2.
do you have video? the short answer is that, somewhat counterintuitively, both your coach and Gary Hall are right. Once your hand enters the water, it should never come back up.
you don’t necessarily have to breathe every 3, but you should try to breathe on both sides, so try a different breathing pattern like 3-2-3. I’m one who doesn’t practice what I preach though, I usually breathe to my right, especially when going hard, except before the flip.
swimming straight in open water is more about sighting effectively.
It just takes time…swim a 25 bilateral, then a 25 same side and repeat…or rotate, with in the same 25…3-3-2-3-3-2-3-3-2. Over time you will get the hang of it. I made the change last year and now its hard for me to breathe every 2 strokes unless I am in a race.
On the second tip…I think you are probable reaching over the center line on hand entry which makes you unbalanced and is causing the scissor kick. Try to get someone to video you…this can be an eyeopening experience.
I swim with a masters group a few times a week. The instructor was watching me swim and giving me two tips. One is to bilateral breathe to straighten out my stroke. I normally only breathe to my right and lift my head too far out of the water, which creates drag. When I breathed every 3 strokes, surprisingly my left side breathing was much better, less head lift, and I was not “snaking” down the lane and swimming much straighter. The problem is that I get out of breath after doing a 50 and have to switch to one sided breathing. Any suggestions? I have bad open water skills and never swim straight, so maybe by switching to bilateral breathing that will help me to swim straighter in open water, if I can build up the lung capacity?
Yes absolutely. You can get the same balance in your stroke by using a 1:2 or breathe every stroke, but just do it on opposing lengths. Breathe all left on the way out, all right on the way back. O2 is your friend. Most triathletes have way too slow a stroke rate and when you couple that with breathing every 3 there is no way to get enough O2 to even swim easy let alone race.
The second tip has me confused. I watched the videos in the other thread from Gary Hall Sr. about working on a high elbow catch and pull. He advocates keeping your hand just under the surface of the water on entry and keeping your elbow high. However, my instructor told me to enter my hand closer to my head (apparently I extend my whole arm out and then enter) and dive the hand down deeper before pulling. He said I was flexing my hand up and stopping my momentum, which causes my legs to sink and a scissor kick to compensate. He was telling me that if I enter with a deeper hand I will keep gliding. Any thoughts on that advice? I take 22-24 strokes per 25 yards so clearly I have a very weak catch and pull.
This one is harder to Dx from words alone, but I agree attempting to keep the hand too shallow can be a stroke killer. One of the things you have to understand about Gary is he is talking about the perfect stroke. You need insane flexibility to keep your hand that shallow and catch that early and not lean or drop on your elbow. The important aspect is to catch immediately. You never ever want to drive your hand up towards the surface just to do it. How early you can do that is going to vary from swimmer to swimmer. Over reaching and attempting to keep the hand as shallow as possible is one of the biggest stroke wreckers out there. It destroys timing and sets one up to not have the elbow higher than the wrist. Having the hand enter first can help you do that, but over reaching is not going to help. Deepening your catch to what you can do is all that matters, not what Nathan Adrian can do. **Just remember that having your hand higher than your elbow once you enter is not going to help you in any way. **
I found I needed to slow down a bit to get bilateral breathing to be more comfortable. When I was breathing on one side, I was stroking fairly quickly. I also had to spend a few laps each session focusing on pacing my breathing, because one sided breathing had me exhaling more quickly so I was ready to breath in again more quickly. With bilateral, the change is really from every 2 to every 3, so it’s not a tremendous jump, but I found a slower exhale helped me to “last” until the 3rd stroke.
22-24 isn’t necessarily a sign of a weak catch and pull as much as lack of aerodynamics (not “aero”, but you know what I mean). I’d bet he wants your hand deeper to give you better balance and stability and help you to maintain a sleeker form against the water.
For me, I swim much faster if I dig deep. It’s very consistent. I’ve tested it out many times. I don’t have the shoulder flexibility to keep my hand high and then get a really good high elbow catch. Digging a little deeper helps me get a better catch/pull. It’s probably not ideal, but for right now that’s what improves my times so I stick with it.
First, in my opinion, bilateral breathing is something used by coaches that want to quickly try to clean up a stroke mechanics issue without really getting to the root cause of the issue. Sometimes it does, but a lot of times it creates other issues. Breathe to the side you are most comfortable on. Also, the reason you have bad open water skills is probably not that you only breathe to one side it’s the fact that your stroke is stronger on one side versus the other. That’s what you should be working on to correct. I would get a snorkel, practice on pulling very equally on both sides. You can quickly find out which side pulls harder by swimming with one arm on one 25 and then the other arm on the next 25. It will be very apparent. Bilateral breathing will not change that.
The “snaking” down the lane and probably a scissor kick to go with it, without seeing your stroke, is usually caused by a crossing over the mid line at the entry of the stroke or being inside the shoulders on the entry, low to no core engagement and a catch that slips a lot of water.
Your second tip confuses me too. I guess if your instructor is a Total Immersion coach then it would make sense, but it seems like you misunderstood what he was asking you to do. I would work on the balance of your stroke and having a neutral/clean recovery so then you can start to work on your catch. Before you get to the catch make sure that you get in a lot more core work/conditioning.
I wouldn’t worry too much about your stroke count right now. Worry about your stroke tempo and the pace clock. They are some of the best tools you have available to you for the swim.
I hope this helps and if you have any questions, please let me know.
Bilateral will definitely even out your stroke. If you find that you are getting winded you can do several things. Easiest is to just relax a bit, don’t push so hard and try to swim to the level your breathe permits. Option 2 would be to take 2 breathes on the same side and then switch over to the other side take 2 breathes Rinse & Repeat. Key is to relax. Anything new in swimming is hard at first.
Hand entry is important. You don’t want to fully extend your arm and the have your palm upward to act as a break. If you enter anywhere between your head & full extension just remember to get the fingers in first, flex the hand at the wrist, keep wrist below the elbow, attempt to get the hand facing directly behind you as soon as you can and keep it pointing behind you during the pull. If you fully extend your arm and then enter the water, during the initial phase of the stroke you may be pushing down with your hand, which raises the front end and drops the rear end.
Paralysis by analysis. Three times on the right, then three times on the left.
Worry about keeping your elbow above your hand, the earlier the better. How deep it is isn’t as critical. Watch Phelps, he is super deep. Watch Sun Yan, he is not. Both of them are faster than you or I & both of them have their elbow above their hand before it gets below the shoulder. Get there first. Most recreational swimmers I watch pull the elbow straight back & the elbow is never above the hand.
Paralysis by analysis. Three times on the right, then three times on the left.
+1. I used to breath every 3rd stroke, and have switched to breathing every 2nd, mostly to my right (don’t want to hit the lane line!) but I do work on getting 1/4 of my strokes to my left. I don’t view bilateral breathing as being every 3rd, 5th, or whatever odd number greater than 1 you like. I see it as (for triathlon swimming) breathing on both sides to a) balance out your swim line, b) avoid choppy water to one side, and c) be able to see what’s going on ALL around you in the swim.
When I run @ 90 spm, I have a breathing pattern that is 3 steps out, 3 steps in on easy/moderate runs and 2 steps out, 2 steps in on faster runs. Odds are that your stroke rate is lower than 90 and if you followed my running breathing pattern you’d be “holding” your breath breathing every third. To me, and this is a ymmv situation, that doesn’t make sense to be holding my breath at the start of a 1-,2-,4-,10-hour event!
I like to do slower and easier swim sets breathing bilaterally to reinforce symmetrical strokes, then do faster and harder sets breathing one sided to get more oxygen. As long as I do some bilateral breathing, I find my stroke doesn’t get lopsided.
As for the entry, I’m an advocate for entry just in front of the head, about half way between your shoulder and full reach. I’ve heard people recommend entry close to the head, and it doesn’t make sense to me to spend that much extra time with your hand in the water moving forward. The only benefit to using that early entry is that it encourages a relaxed arm and bent elbow through the recovery phase. Once the hand is in the water, it should never be moving upward, and should go from full extension reach to catch almost immediately.
Video would be helpful if you have a friend with a GoPro or something else waterproof!
To get your breathing and alignment sorted, just keep doing it. It’ll get easier. However, if you stop, you’ll never change.
Ditto your arms. I have a feeling that both your points of advice are telling you the same thing in different ways - although one has the advantage of having seen you. Its possible to over-reach and throw your body into a constant series of snake wriggles with lots of lost speed/energy simply wriggling from side to side. Not common but I’ve seen it. Your coach may be trying to stop you wriggling, especially if you already move around a lot as per your breathing style. High elbow followed by a straight forearm pull is a good, simple way to iron out lots of niggles. Or wriggles even…
Most importantly, keep swimming. Time in the pool helps.
Sorry don’t mean to hijack the thread.
For example, does breathing to your left going one way down the lane, and breathing into your right side going back down the lane have the same or similar benefits as bilateral breathing? Technically you’re still breathing both on your left and right side.
Thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated. I have some video on an underwater camera but I can’t figure out how to upload it. I’ll work on it and try to post next week.
I feel better and faster with a deeper hand entry. I had not thought about changing breathing sides each length. I will try that.
I know some people will disagree but I think bilateral breathing is way over-rated in terms of “evening out” your stroke. Watch the leader of this D1 200 free final: as far as I can tell, he just breathes on one side but he’s tearing up the pool doing 1:32.7 for 200 scy, which is 1.5 sec off the American record of 1:31.2. IMO, I wouldn’t worry about bilateral breathing at all, just breath on whichever side you feel most comfortable on, and when you’re swimming hard, picture yourself swimming super fast like these guys. Mental imagery is powerful:)
Bilateral breathing is great for drill work, but unless you are a sprinter you will want to use it as a training tool and not for most of your training/any racing (aside from switching to breathe on the side the sun is not shining into your eyes)
Hand entry should not be close to the head and should not be thumb first for open water swimming. In Jane Scott’s open water/triathlon master’s swim here in Boulder, this is something we have been specifically working on correcting (it is a normal technique taught to swimmers).
Hand entry should be deep for open water swimming (along with a higher cadence eventually). Hopefully you will be drafting feet and have a bit less resistance here, but in general, it sets you up for a better/stronger catch which is much more important in open water and for non-elite swimmers.
It’s OK to work on gliding for drills and maybe warm-up, but gliding is not something you want in open water swimming. High cadence/deep catch is what is fast.
Thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated. I have some video on an underwater camera but I can’t figure out how to upload it. I’ll work on it and try to post next week.
I feel better and faster with a deeper hand entry. I had not thought about changing breathing sides each length. I will try that.
I know some people will disagree but I think bilateral breathing is way over-rated in terms of “evening out” your stroke. Watch the leader of this D1 200 free final: as far as I can tell, he just breathes on one side but he’s tearing up the pool doing 1:32.7 for 200 scy, which is 1.5 sec off the American record of 1:31.2. IMO, I wouldn’t worry about bilateral breathing at all, just breath on whichever side you feel most comfortable on, and when you’re swimming hard, picture yourself swimming super fast like these guys. Mental imagery is powerful:)
I agree, racing…but I think bilateral breathing of some form is very valuable in training & drills. When I swim fast, I always go back to breathing on the right.
Thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated. I have some video on an underwater camera but I can’t figure out how to upload it. I’ll work on it and try to post next week.
I feel better and faster with a deeper hand entry. I had not thought about changing breathing sides each length. I will try that.
I know some people will disagree but I think bilateral breathing is way over-rated in terms of “evening out” your stroke. Watch the leader of this D1 200 free final: as far as I can tell, he just breathes on one side but he’s tearing up the pool doing 1:32.7 for 200 scy, which is 1.5 sec off the American record of 1:31.2. IMO, I wouldn’t worry about bilateral breathing at all, just breath on whichever side you feel most comfortable on, and when you’re swimming hard, picture yourself swimming super fast like these guys. Mental imagery is powerful:)
I agree, racing…but I think bilateral breathing of some form is very valuable in training & drills. When I swim fast, I always go back to breathing on the right.
Silly me, I’m always assuming the discussion is always about swimming fast. I do see your point though but I have to say that, in all honesty, the only time I breath to my non-preferred side is to check out a hottie on the deck:)
BTW, I just love that 200 free video, it is one of my all-time fav swimming vids. There’s just something about how hard the lead guy goes out, how he’s just clearly killing it, only to come up 0.4 sec short in the end. I think that same guy, Dmitri Kolopaev, finished 2nd again in the 200 free in 2013. He swam on the German oly 4 x 200 free relay in 2012 but they didn’t make it to the finals IIRC. Anyway, great vid IMO.
I’ve swam for so many years breathing every stroke to the right side, breathing to the left is like starting over.
I apologize for not being clear that it is possible to swim at variable speeds
That 200 video is cool. I was talking to a DI swimmer today, & the biggest change for me from HS to college was the 200. THe 200 in HS is a distance event. In college it is a sprint. Both guys strokes went to hell in that video in the last 25 yds, fun to watch how good their walls are too.
If you dont recommend bilateral breathing you are either very good or very bad. Very good swimmers have so much training, hours and hours of repetition of a perfect stroke with feedback from a coach. Bad swimmers are lazy. They dont get feedback. They say that their unilateral breathing dont hurt them but I’m pretty certain that if you are not comfortable breathing to both sides, your swimming isnt symmetrical.
I do pull sets where I breathe 3-5-7. And with the paddles my spm is low. Its a great way to learn to be patient yet quick with your breathing, getting the air in and exhaling properly. And you get many repetitions without the disruptive element of turning to breathe.
These sets are pretty slow. 1:40/100m maybe and I do them for 200-1000 meters maybe once a week.
I also like using breathing restriction as a way to keep intensity down when it needs to be down. If I’m only allowed to breathe every 5th stroke I better take it easy.
