I think I need to get to the oval and do some Eric Heiden workouts :-).
Frankly I think we all get way too caught up in specifics…for example Jackmott sitting and analysing things to death…dude, you just ran a 3:42 marathon…you need leg speed and more endurance and a bit more durability to keep improving your run times. Run all paces, just be a miser with how you spend your run speed credits so you don’t implode…better to do most of it on the bike and swim to tax your cardio without killing your joints.
I like to have a mix of all types of training from 20 second sprints all the way to 180K rides. I compete in enough sports where short burts/jumps for 10-20 seconds to stay with the pack and recover are just as importants as lasting for 10+ hours, so as Bigslowmover says…train as you race. If I just trained Ironman, it might be another story. Even for guys running half marathons, the ability to elevate the pace, jump onto the next group and sit in, or jack up the pace to to drop guys drafting ya…same in XC ski racing, speedskating (pack), triathlon run leg and triathlon swim leg. There are tactical elements in racing that do require higher end speed then “go all day”. Aside from that, is more fun!!!
I think I need to get to the oval and do some Eric Heiden workouts :-).
Frankly I think we all get way too caught up in specifics…for example Jackmott sitting and analysing things to death…dude, you just ran a 3:42 marathon…you need leg speed and more endurance and a bit more durability to keep improving your run times. Run all paces, just be a miser with how you spend your run speed credits so you don’t implode…better to do most of it on the bike and swim to tax your cardio without killing your joints.
I like to have a mix of all types of training from 20 second sprints all the way to 180K rides. I compete in enough sports where short burts/jumps for 10-20 seconds to stay with the pack and recover are just as importants as lasting for 10+ hours, so as Bigslowmover says…train as you race. If I just trained Ironman, it might be another story. Even for guys running half marathons, the ability to elevate the pace, jump onto the next group and sit in, or jack up the pace to to drop guys drafting ya…same in XC ski racing, speedskating (pack), triathlon run leg and triathlon swim leg. There are tactical elements in racing that do require higher end speed then “go all day”. Aside from that, is more fun!!!
thus the need for doing all kinds of training at varying intensities and durations…there is no magic workout…just work …and as bigslowmover says, train as you race. If you want to run 3:30, then you better make sure that you can pretty well run 7:45 pace (not 8 pace) all the time, every run regardless of conditions…then you might be able to string together 26 of those miles on race day.
The essence of this thread is 116% of VO2 max training. Train as you race, and I don’t think that most of us do a lot of 116% of VO2 max racing. Not even in a sprint triathlon… A bit of high intensity might help, and if someone thinks it is fun to run out of oxygen, and feel the legs burning in only a 3 min work out, who cares you do it. After all we all do this sport for fun, isn’t it… But I don’t think 116% of VO2 max is the secret to really faster racing.
Speed skating at 116 % of VO2 max is very interesting. That will hurt the legs more than any other endurance sport I know. Hell ya, maybe I should go to the oval as well for some leg strength suffering in winter!
And by the way, those high intensity training at the end of your long runs (I am assuming it is long 2hr +), don’t they make an old man like you injured? 10*20 sec at the end of a long run is even for a young man like me one of the fastest way to injury. If I want speed work, I rather do it well rested.
I’ve never understood this about marathon training or IM training. If all you do is LSD, how are you supposed to execute a fast race?
I had my best marathon time ever in October after ditching the LSD concept and focusing on Tempo runs and speed workouts (1x track workout per week, 1x tempo run and 1x long run with tempo at the end).
I am using the same concept in starting to train for IM this year. Most IM training I have seen online and read about in magazines focuses almost entirely on LSD. I can see that as a way to be able to do the distance, but not to do the distance FAST.
My workouts are not of the 800m sprinter intensity level, but doing 95% of FTP rides and 4x1 mile Tempo runs are no joke. They look easy on paper but my weekly TSS keeps going up way more than when I was riding for 2+ hrs at 65% FTP and running 1.5 hours in Z1.
Starting next week I’ll be doing intervals of 120% FTP. I know, not the same as VO2 max but still, a higher intensity than a lot of training regimens use.
The essence of this thread is 116% of VO2 max training. Train as you race, and I don’t think that most of us do a lot of 116% of VO2 max racing. Not even in a sprint triathlon… A bit of high intensity might help, and if someone thinks it is fun to run out of oxygen, and feel the legs burning in only a 3 min work out, who cares you do it. After all we all do this sport for fun, isn’t it… But I don’t think 116% of VO2 max is the secret to really faster racing.
I disagree. Structured 6x4min and 2x20min interval sets (1 of each per week) combined with race-pace 50-100mi distance rides on Saturday and easy recovery rides on other days were the key for me going from ~235W to ~315W in a couple of months last summer. This improvement took me from 22ish mph to over 26mph on 40k TT races with equivalent equipment. 4 years of LSD slogging in previous years took me from 20 to 22ish mph…you pick which one was the right training method… Placing in the top 20 bike splits in big fields (I still suck at running fast) speaks for itself.
You seem to be on the right way. Keep going on with this long tempo work.
So we agree except for the meaning of the word “intensity”. Tempo paced long training is key for long distance succes. Not very fast intervals. I train in the 10-17 hour a week range as well. Lots of tempo pace in there, but no real intensity. My problem with LSD training is in the meaning of the “S” as well. We are not supposed to go slow. We are supposed to go long and fast. Duration in itself means nothing. Slow is not the way to go. I erased zone 1 almost completely except for my longest training days (5hr +). These days are purely to get used to go for 6 hours. I tried to do tempo in these training as well, but that did more damage than good. Way too long recovery after 6.5 hour with more than 4.5 hour tempo, so I stopped doing this after a few of these very hard IM training sessions. Someone warned me in advance that this was too much, but I like to try the extremes myself and listen to what my body tells me afterwards. It did me less damage than copying the 800m athlete as the same person that warned me adviced me to do. That hard core intensity work is really killing me.
I think this is a common problem with endurance training. The internet is a wonderful medium for disseminating info, but too often that info gets diluted. What is “S” in LSD? Relative to a track workout, S is more like high Z2 low Z3! Unfortunately, it’s been diluted and distilled down to Z1 by many/most. I don’t recall the last time I spent any significant time in Z1…it just doesn’t seem to work for me.
One way to speak a common language is to use a common test protoco. I have found that Dr. Daniels’ VDOT test/tables works pretty well. That way, I can compare my VDOT to anyone elses…and the training pace zones are the same for any/all VDOTs. It gives clarity to LSD (ER pace) vs something like Threshold Pace and Interval Pace. I like clarity.
I had my best marathon time ever in October after ditching the LSD concept and focusing on Tempo runs and speed workouts (1x track workout per week, 1x tempo run and 1x long run with tempo at the end).
Did you follow the FIRST plan? I like the idea of it, but I'm not sure I have enough run base to do it. I tried it a year ago, and the intensity was too much for me then. Now, I have better, though not ideal, run base, so I am considering trying it again.
I always thought the S in LSD stood for “steady”. Three types of workouts, intervals, tempo and LSD with LSD being at a pace you can hold for a long period of time without killing yourself. The actual pace is dependent on the length of the workout, 90-120 minutes for a run, twice that for the bike.
10x20 seconds with 40 second cruise. During the 20 seconds on, I am barely covering 100m, so while it is a “sprint” compared to long run pace (or any run pace), it is only 80 second 400m pace…so not exactly in the Carl Lewis 11116666% of VO2max blow my joints apart zone. Try it some time…you’ll be surprised how easy it is on the body (assuming you have a reasonable running base). In 20 seconds there is barely any time for the legs to turn to rubber nor for the lungs to suck wind…just enough time to accelerate up to “race speed or faster”.
For the record, my long run rarely exceeds 1:30-1:40 range at least in the past 2 years that’s what I’ve capped it at. No real interest in running super long aside from sucking things up and dealing with the long run on the actual day of an Ironman. If I am going any longer, I’ll do it on a bike or skis. Just my personal interest now. If I was interested in optimizing long race performance, I’d run longer (train as you arace), but I’m OK with giving away a few minutes on race day and not have to be out doing long runs every weekend.
i’m at the university of cape town, where noakes works, and he’s huge here. a real legend. anyway:
the high speed stuff is 100% where it’s at. i’ll have to dig up the references, but there’s been other, more recent work looking at intervals etc., and it seems that even for distance runners, speed is the way forward. basically as i remember it your aerobic systems contributions peter off around 1500m, so anything longer than that (for intervals) is a waste of time; you can get the same ‘fitness’ benefits, plus all the mechanical benefits of actually running faster, by doing shorter work.
as others have said, though, the crash and burn risk is high with running. in the swimming pool, though, smart coaches and athletes cottoned on to this years ago. speedwork: the new black!!
Speedwork is only part of the picture; an important part, but only a part. This is why pro cyclists ride 30 hours per week and top runners run 100+ miles per week.
Studies that typically last 6-12 weeks can be very misleading if they’re not interpreted in context. The goal for most of us is to build performance over several years, and studies to show what training is most effective in this context would be impractical. We’re left with the huge weight of evidence from the careers of top endurance athletes, which suggests that volume is crucial.
In response to the original post, if you think about recovery times involved with doing 15 min of high intensity work(for good HIGH intensity work, you need FULL recovery, which means probably a 3:1 or 4:1 rest ratio) your total workout is not going to be that much shorter. For example, look at Dev’s post on his speedwork, 20sec hard then 40 sec rec. which is 2:1, so for 15min of 116%, your total workout is still at least 45min plus WU and CD. For me 83% of VO2max is about my lsd pace… so they end up not that different… Which is better? Neither. Any good training program should have both.
I think this is a common problem with endurance training. The internet is a wonderful medium for disseminating info, but too often that info gets diluted. What is “S” in LSD? Relative to a track workout, S is more like high Z2 low Z3! Unfortunately, it’s been diluted and distilled down to Z1 by many/most. I don’t recall the last time I spent any significant time in Z1…it just doesn’t seem to work for me.
One way to speak a common language is to use a common test protoco. I have found that Dr. Daniels’ VDOT test/tables works pretty well. That way, I can compare my VDOT to anyone elses…and the training pace zones are the same for any/all VDOTs. It gives clarity to LSD (ER pace) vs something like Threshold Pace and Interval Pace. I like clarity.
I think you hit it on the head. Which zone you consider fast is relative. I grew up running 400 and 800 and playing soccer, so z3 feels slow and z4 doesn’t feel fast most days either. So for me LSD means z2, recovery is z1… I think Daniels also has some decent guidelines for how much training time should be spent at different paces as a % of total time. Seems like it fits fairly well.
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*Haile Gebrselassie: *I really can’t just jog. Something in me forces me to run fast. An easy run for me is running 4:30 minutes per kilometer. I can’t do anything slower. Five minutes per kilometer would be just too slow."
It has been some time since I read the book, but it seemed to be so filled with contradicting studies. I believe it was because Noakes tried to give the data and not elect to only give the studies he thought were most valid. The fact of the matter is a study is only as good as its experimental design and its statistical power upon which it’s conclusions are based. Many have too small of a sample population to truly tease out meaningful information. The less is more attitude and maxing at “quality” 70-100 mpw for elite marathoners so popular in the U.S. during the 90’s resulted in no sub 2:10 marathons. In fact only a few of our men could beat the top women in the world, let alone make the A standard for the Olympic trials. Back to high mileage and training partners/groups/clubs (Hanson’s, Terrance Mahon’s, Salazar’s) and we are back to running some good numbers. There must be something to be said for training volume (high mileage). Triathletes of course are more limited by time constraints. Go long one day, do a VO2max another, LT/Tempo work, and whatever you can squeeze in between. Almost any good book/program consists of all three elements and their relative ratio adjusted to the athlete and the race distance. Nothing really revolutionary or different in the newer books they are all mostly in agreement. The most recent advances have come in devices for quantifying exercise doses and software for monitoring progress and bouts of exertion and recovery. I still wonder if the Kenyans were to use our tools would they be any better than they are at present?