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Kona Pro Bike Failures
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I've heard about several bike failures yesterday amongst the pros.

Jeff Symonds - broken (loose) crank
Matt Hansen - snapped brake cable or at least came loose
Heater Wuertle - Rear derailluer failure and not Di2 meltdown
Jordan Rapp - broken saddle rails

Any others?

Updated with corrections/additions.
Last edited by: logella: Oct 11, 15 14:51
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
I've heard about several bike failures yesterday amongst the pros.

Jeff Symonds - broken crank
Matt Hansen - snapped brake cable
Heater Wuertle - Di2 meltdown

Any others?

I believe that it was Matt's aero bars that broke as the result of a crash. Still seems like things that shouldn't happen on race day.

This isn't the first I've heard of Di2 issues - very happy with my SRAM Red 'old school' group.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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What I've heard is that when he went to apply the brakes for the turn the cable snapped and which led to the crash. The bars snapped as a result of the crash.
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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natethomas wrote:
logella wrote:
I've heard about several bike failures yesterday amongst the pros.

Jeff Symonds - broken crank
Matt Hansen - snapped brake cable
Heater Wuertle - Di2 meltdown

Any others?


I believe that it was Matt's aero bars that broke as the result of a crash. Still seems like things that shouldn't happen on race day.

This isn't the first I've heard of Di2 issues - very happy with my SRAM Red 'old school' group.


There is probably a reason why some pro cyclists (Cancellara, Nibali, Contador) use mechanical shifting for their critical races. There is less to go wrong.


I don't understand how someone's brake cable could snap. That sounds like incompetent maintenance.
Last edited by: Arch Stanton: Oct 11, 15 11:46
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Arch Stanton] [ In reply to ]
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What was going on with Tim O'donnell near Wiakola??
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
I've heard about several bike failures yesterday amongst the pros.

Jeff Symonds - broken crank
Matt Hansen - snapped brake cable
Heater Wuertle - Di2 meltdown

Any others?

I don't think it was Heather's Di2, it was her rear derailleur pulley came dislodged according to Fastyellow (Dusty Nabor) who saw her bike.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, Gatorade Smith Optics, SpeedFil, ENVE Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
What I've heard is that when he went to apply the brakes for the turn the cable snapped and which led to the crash. The bars snapped as a result of the crash.

That's too bad about Matt. After my crash at IM Switerland in 2011, and seeing how badly carbon base bars shatter, I have gone to Aluminium basebar only. They may bend ever so slightly in a crash, but you can likely get up and continue your day if your body is OK.

Do you know if the cable snapped or did it just come lose at the Allen Key bolt where the cable attaches to the brakes. I literally have never heard of a brake cable snapping in all my years of cycling. The forces on them SHOULD be too low to cause a failure. There is a reason why brake cables are thicker and more robust than shifter cables. I know it is easy to Monday morning QB all this (that's what fans are supposed to do anyway) but would be very surprised with a truly "snapped" brake cable. Real bummer for Matt however you look at this.

In terms of Symond's broken crank. I bet you the crank was not broken. I am guessing it came lose. Again, I have never heard of a broken crank, but I have heard of cranks improperly tightened coming lose and this happening after travel is not entirely uncommon either.
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't Rapp's saddle break?
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Carbon cranks brake. Done it 4 times.

http://www.gudmundsnilstveit.com
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Guddis] [ In reply to ]
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Guddis wrote:
Carbon cranks brake. Done it 4 times.

Seriously, first time I have heard of a crank breaking and I have had carbon cranks on 2 bikes (but generally stuck with Al).
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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My money's on bad wrenching on the brakes. I ran the same brake cables for 10 years and ~30,000 miles on one bike without having a problem, including quite a few emergency stops with wheels locked up! Ironically I finally changed the cables last year at the same time as replacing the calipers, and after less than 12 months I've got a sticky rear brake which is driving me nuts and I can't figure out the root cause.
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
logella wrote:
I've heard about several bike failures yesterday amongst the pros.

Jeff Symonds - broken crank
Matt Hansen - snapped brake cable
Heater Wuertle - Di2 meltdown

Any others?


I don't think it was Heather's Di2, it was her rear derailleur pulley came dislodged according to Fastyellow (Dusty Nabor) who saw her bike.

It wasn't a Di2 failure, it was a pulley failure. AKA it was a mechanical failure in an electric system.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [rferic18] [ In reply to ]
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rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?

Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


Sorry to hear about your race....at the Paris Indoor tri in 1993:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShaIkG8qf48


Go to 6:20 into the video when they leave T1 and see what happens to Garret McCarthy's saddle (ouch). Short race on the velodrome and he had to do it standing. I guess you spent way too much time either compressing your hip angle sitting way back, or standing up, both of which killing your bike and run split. That's a stellar result considering all this. Congrats.
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


I've always avoided carbon railed saddles but I put a Dash saddle on my bike last winter... mainly because I wanted to try the Dash but I wish Dash had a Ti railed saddle.

Sorry about your bad luck.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: GMAN19030: Oct 11, 15 14:34
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


I've always avoided carbon railed saddles but I put a Dash saddle on my bike last winter... mainly because I wanted to try the Dash but I wish Dash had a Ti railed saddle.

Sorry about your bad luck.

These were titanium rails that snapped. Solid titanium rails...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
logella wrote:
I've heard about several bike failures yesterday amongst the pros.

Jeff Symonds - broken crank
Matt Hansen - snapped brake cable
Heater Wuertle - Di2 meltdown

Any others?


I don't think it was Heather's Di2, it was her rear derailleur pulley came dislodged according to Fastyellow (Dusty Nabor) who saw her bike.


It wasn't a Di2 failure, it was a pulley failure. AKA it was a mechanical failure in an electric system.

But that doesn't work with the Di2 haters version of events. Electronic shifting is evil.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
GMAN19030 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


I've always avoided carbon railed saddles but I put a Dash saddle on my bike last winter... mainly because I wanted to try the Dash but I wish Dash had a Ti railed saddle.

Sorry about your bad luck.


These were titanium rails that snapped. Solid titanium rails...

How the fuck? Didn't expect that reply.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
GMAN19030 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


I've always avoided carbon railed saddles but I put a Dash saddle on my bike last winter... mainly because I wanted to try the Dash but I wish Dash had a Ti railed saddle.

Sorry about your bad luck.

These were titanium rails that snapped. Solid titanium rails...

Might be time to "upgrade" to hollow CroMo steel rails...probably weigh the same as solid Ti rails, and if designed correctly, basically infinite fatigue life.

Nice work out there in any case :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Who the heck is that guy running barefoot?


devashish_paul wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


Sorry to hear about your race....at the Paris Indoor tri in 1993:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShaIkG8qf48


Go to 6:20 into the video when they leave T1 and see what happens to Garret McCarthy's saddle (ouch). Short race on the velodrome and he had to do it standing. I guess you spent way too much time either compressing your hip angle sitting way back, or standing up, both of which killing your bike and run split. That's a stellar result considering all this. Congrats.
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
GMAN19030 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
rferic18 wrote:
Didn't Rapp's saddle break?


Yes. The saddle rails snapped in four places. Progressively. One rail snapped about 30km into the ride, and it was manageable, but with the saddle being weakened by the one rail snapping, it just kept breaking more. By the time I was climbing to Hawi, the saddle was basically just loosely held onto to the top of the seatpost.

After the turnaround in Hawi, I flagged down tech support and sad, "I need a saddle." They had one guys bike on the roof, and we just pulled the saddle off and swapped it in. But obviously wasn't able to position it correctly. It was better than what I had, but it was pitched way up, so I had the choice of either riding it MTB style - sitting back big-slam style on it - or sitting with the nose of the saddle jammed into my prostate. I needed to stand a lot to take pressure off and just generally was pretty uncomfortable. But I was able to finish the ride and thought I might run okay. But my legs were pretty messed up from doing 150km without proper support under my ass...

When you think about "shit happens" during a race, this was not something that ever entered into my consciousness... Kona definitely has some Bermuda-Triangle-esque qualities when it comes to bikes.


I've always avoided carbon railed saddles but I put a Dash saddle on my bike last winter... mainly because I wanted to try the Dash but I wish Dash had a Ti railed saddle.

Sorry about your bad luck.

These were titanium rails that snapped. Solid titanium rails...

Might be time to "upgrade" to hollow CroMo steel rails...probably weigh the same as solid Ti rails, and if designed correctly, basically infinite fatigue life.

Nice work out there in any case :-)

I am going to see if Cobb can make me an SHC170 with CrMo rails. If I had the option of steel rails, I would always choose them.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Might be time to "upgrade" to hollow CroMo steel rails...probably weigh the same as solid Ti rails, and if designed correctly, basically infinite fatigue life.

Nice work out there in any case :-)

Well cromo steel rails would not have an infinite fatigue life. While at a low enough stress, mild steel has a flat fatigue limit, it would not really apply for saddle rails. First there is a knock down for the heat treatment (and if you are not heat treating, then you might as well go with mild steel). Second, you are going to have a stress concentration where the saddle clamp attaches to the rail. This concentration where the saddle clamp ends and where the rail is free will be another knock down that cause the fatigue life not to infinite. I am guessing that is the stress concentration that drives the design, maybe where the rail is attached the saddle is another concentration. Third, you will have to deal with corrosion causing a fatigue failure in steel, since you may wear away any sort of protection where the saddle clamps. Carbon fiber may actually be a pretty ideal material for this kind of clamped joints. Most of the stress concentration will be in the polymer matrix, so it take the most of the load preventing from sliding. Polymers are pretty good for this sort of stress concentration. Even if it really stresses some of the carbon fibers and they break, their load will be transferred to fibers not being bent by this clamp.

My random guess for failure of the rails is fretting. This joint, especially if the saddle is taken on and off, will be subject to fretting. Basically some of the oxidized coating the saddle rail is rubbed off in the clamp joint. Since this oxide is so hard it just slowly wears away at the softer titanium creating a sharp stress concentration.
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Might be time to "upgrade" to hollow CroMo steel rails...probably weigh the same as solid Ti rails, and if designed correctly, basically infinite fatigue life.

Nice work out there in any case :-)

Well cromo steel rails would not have an infinite fatigue life. While at a low enough stress, mild steel has a flat fatigue limit, it would not really apply for saddle rails. First there is a knock down for the heat treatment (and if you are not heat treating, then you might as well go with mild steel). Second, you are going to have a stress concentration where the saddle clamp attaches to the rail. This concentration where the saddle clamp ends and where the rail is free will be another knock down that cause the fatigue life not to infinite. I am guessing that is the stress concentration that drives the design, maybe where the rail is attached the saddle is another concentration. Third, you will have to deal with corrosion causing a fatigue failure in steel, since you may wear away any sort of protection where the saddle clamps. Carbon fiber may actually be a pretty ideal material for this kind of clamped joints. Most of the stress concentration will be in the polymer matrix, so it take the most of the load preventing from sliding. Polymers are pretty good for this sort of stress concentration. Even if it really stresses some of the carbon fibers and they break, their load will be transferred to fibers not being bent by this clamp.

My random guess for failure of the rails is fretting. This joint, especially if the saddle is taken on and off, will be subject to fretting. Basically some of the oxidized coating the saddle rail is rubbed off in the clamp joint. Since this oxide is so hard it just slowly wears away at the softer titanium creating a sharp stress concentration.

I am trying to get the parts back (tech support still has it), but what's weird is that that the saddle did not SEEM to fail at the location of the clamp. Obviously my exact recollection is not super reliable as I was in the midst of an Ironman, but I remember where we took off the saddle shell (it was no longer attached to anything) and started loosening the bolts to pop the saddle off, I remember thinking, "huh, that's a weird place for the rails to snap..." It was basically halfway between the clamp and the insertion point into the shell, at all four locations.

I actually agree with you on the carbon. I think carbon is a pretty good material for saddle rails, especially if you do it how Fizik does it where it's a carbon rail and then they wrap the rail with a carbon overwrap that takes the stress of the clamping, so you separate the clamping forces from the stresses on the rail. One thought I had was to try wrapping the titanium rails with a thin wrap of carbon. Not that this is likely to ever happen again, but "semper paratus..."

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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"Who the heck is that guy running barefoot?"


A legend of our sport, the Croc, Brad Bevan.
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Re: Kona Pro Bike Failures [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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"I have never heard of a broken crank,"
-----------------------
I've snapped 2 in training over the last 30 years...both in the '90s when I was strong. One crank arm went through my calf when it snapped!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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